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Original poster

What is actually illegal and what is advised against?

62 replies

treening · 17/12/2020 13:03

Struggling to find a straight answer to this. For example, I know that indoor mixing is against the law in tiers 2 and 3 except for support bubbles, caring etc. And that it is against the law for hospitality to be open in tier 3, or to have a wedding with 50 people. But for example with travel from tier 3 to tier 2, is says it is "advised against". I don't know whether than means it is illegal or not.

BTW this is not me trying to circumvent the rules but I honestly don't know right now what is actually not permitted in law vs what is merely "guidance". Anyone else?

OP posts:
Mousehole10 · 17/12/2020 13:05

If it says ‘advised against’ or you ‘should/shouldn’t’ It’s guidelines and not law. Everything that says you ‘must/must not’ is law.

Mousehole10 · 17/12/2020 13:05

So mixing inside against the law, travelling advised against

Original poster
treening · 17/12/2020 13:05

That is what I thought but it is difficult to tell sometimes.

OP posts:
Original poster
treening · 17/12/2020 13:09

Actually on reading again I think the travel actually is illegal.

OP posts:
QueenStromba · 17/12/2020 13:16

Travel is allowed but they'd prefer you didn't.

Original poster
treening · 17/12/2020 13:19

OK, that's what I was trying to ascertain really.

OP posts:
Spodge · 17/12/2020 13:33

Check out Adam Wagner on Twitter @AdamWagner1. He's gone into everything in detail.

AcornAutumn · 17/12/2020 13:38

@treening

Actually on reading again I think the travel actually is illegal.
No, the travel is not illegal.

The law is horrendously complicated. Adam Wagner is a good shout.

Theworldisfullofgs · 17/12/2020 13:39

If moving from tier2 to tier 3 was illegal lots of people would have to stop going to school.

middleager · 17/12/2020 13:46

And then Christmas changes things again, so people from one tier can bubble with people in another at a second home somewhere else.

What about this scenario? Could a London MP travel to their tier 1 second home, inviting family too and then visit the local restaurants because they have documentation etc showing home ownership?

Rollergirl11 · 17/12/2020 13:48

We are booked to go to a cottage for New Year to a Tier 2 area but we have just moved in to Tier 3 so I’m assuming we won’t be going. But will we get a refund if it’s just government guidance rather than law?

AcornAutumn · 17/12/2020 13:49

@middleager

And then Christmas changes things again, so people from one tier can bubble with people in another at a second home somewhere else.

What about this scenario? Could a London MP travel to their tier 1 second home, inviting family too and then visit the local restaurants because they have documentation etc showing home ownership?

Legally I’d say yes

I don’t think they’ve written the law tightly enough to make it a no.

Original poster
treening · 17/12/2020 13:55

We are booked to go to a cottage for New Year to a Tier 2 area but we have just moved in to Tier 3 so I’m assuming we won’t be going. But will we get a refund if it’s just government guidance rather than law?

Yes, that's exactly the kind of scenario I was wondering about really.

OP posts:
IntermittentParps · 17/12/2020 14:05

We are booked to go to a cottage for New Year to a Tier 2 area but we have just moved in to Tier 3 so I’m assuming we won’t be going. But will we get a refund if it’s just government guidance rather than law?

I'm in the same position for Christmas (in London, going to a Tier 2 area). Going quite soon and haven't heard from the company that they're cancelling it, so I'm assuming a) it's guidance not law and b) they're operating on a don't-ask-don't-tell basis in terms of where their customers may or may not be travelling from.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 17/12/2020 14:29

Did you watch the podium talk last night?

Every journo asked a variation of the same question, basically the same as OP. BJ was quite clear, so if media hacks are still presenting it in a muddled manner that is their doing.

There are laws, must/must not do's.

The government won't make Christmas an illegal gathering.

The 5 days or reduced restriction is optional, you know your own situation best.

Don't have a big gathering just because you can.

Yes... we are all being asked to behave responsibly.

What did you expect?

Whatever decision the government made there would be wailing and chest beating. What they have done will be right for some, a green light for stupidity for few (hopefully few) and of no fucking consequence to others.

It REALLY isn't difficult if you take a step back and stop trying to make a broad strike recommendation apply to intensely personal situations.

But it's been like that all year... it's not really surprising that the same old problems are still rearing their heads!

AcornAutumn · 17/12/2020 14:29

@IntermittentParps

We are booked to go to a cottage for New Year to a Tier 2 area but we have just moved in to Tier 3 so I’m assuming we won’t be going. But will we get a refund if it’s just government guidance rather than law?

I'm in the same position for Christmas (in London, going to a Tier 2 area). Going quite soon and haven't heard from the company that they're cancelling it, so I'm assuming a) it's guidance not law and b) they're operating on a don't-ask-don't-tell basis in terms of where their customers may or may not be travelling from.

Over Xmas, it doesn’t matter

New Year, I’m less clear about but the tiers might change before then.

It’s my guess that there will be lockdown and curfew before New Year.

IntermittentParps · 17/12/2020 14:33

AcornAutumn, I'm going outside/for longer than the Christmas grace period. (is that what you meant by it doesn't matter?)
Yes, things may change again in the new year. I'm just hoping that they don't decide to impose a full lockdown before Monday, which is when I go, or obviously I'll be scuppered.

ProfessorRadcliffeEmerson · 17/12/2020 14:34

Travelling is legal but advised against. But good luck finding accommodation that will take you. We've had to cancel a much-needed break after Christmas.

AcornAutumn · 17/12/2020 14:42

@IntermittentParps

AcornAutumn, I'm going outside/for longer than the Christmas grace period. (is that what you meant by it doesn't matter?) Yes, things may change again in the new year. I'm just hoping that they don't decide to impose a full lockdown before Monday, which is when I go, or obviously I'll be scuppered.
Have you contacted the venue yet? Actually I’ve confused myself...if the hotel is in Tier 2 it’s all right isn’t it....

So awful this is happening.

There’s an outdoors New Year event happening near me and I’m amazed they’re trying to go ahead. It’s bound to be made illegal before NY.

Lurkingforawhile · 17/12/2020 14:46

We've just gone into tier three (as of Sat) unexpectedly, so trying to read up on what might be ok and what isn't. It's hard work. Thanks for sharing the Twitter link, will try that.

IntermittentParps · 17/12/2020 14:46

AcornAutumn, no. Reading between the lines of what they say on their website, I think they're paying lip service to the idea of people not travelling from higher tiers but don't really want people to cancel on that basis. If they were really serious/worried about it I think they'd contact customers proactively. As far as I'm concerned I'm still going. They're doing super-cleaning, asking people to bag up linens at the end, key collection is all through a safe etc, so I don't think it's very high-risk at all.

IntermittentParps · 17/12/2020 14:48

Have you contacted the venue yet? Actually I’ve confused myself...if the hotel is in Tier 2 it’s all right isn’t it....

My holiday rental is in Tier 2 and I live in Tier 3. The website says 'Whilst the UK government has not made it illegal for single households/support bubbles who live in a Tier 3 area to travel to a self-catering holiday property in England in either Tier 1 or Tier 2 areas they have advised people not to travel out of Tier 3 areas. As such, we ask that all of our guests who live in Tier 3 areas take this Government guidance seriously and that they contact us to discuss their bookings. We will assist you and will work with our property owners to defer your booking until later this year or next year or to discuss other options that may be available. However, as this is not a legal restriction the final decision will be down to the property owner as to what options are available.'

I read that as them basically looking away and not asking.

AcornAutumn · 17/12/2020 14:49

@IntermittentParps

AcornAutumn, no. Reading between the lines of what they say on their website, I think they're paying lip service to the idea of people not travelling from higher tiers but don't really want people to cancel on that basis. If they were really serious/worried about it I think they'd contact customers proactively. As far as I'm concerned I'm still going. They're doing super-cleaning, asking people to bag up linens at the end, key collection is all through a safe etc, so I don't think it's very high-risk at all.
They’d lose their business for no reason if they tried that.

Sorry, I got confused between tiers when I originally saw your question.

But I’m still confused, if a hotel is put into tier 3, do they literally have to cancel all their leisure bookings?

Original poster
treening · 17/12/2020 14:53

CuriousaboutSamphire

That wasn't what I asked. What I asked is what is and isn't illegal, not the moral shoulds or should nots.

OP posts: