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Original poster

What is actually illegal and what is advised against?

62 replies

treening · 17/12/2020 13:03

Struggling to find a straight answer to this. For example, I know that indoor mixing is against the law in tiers 2 and 3 except for support bubbles, caring etc. And that it is against the law for hospitality to be open in tier 3, or to have a wedding with 50 people. But for example with travel from tier 3 to tier 2, is says it is "advised against". I don't know whether than means it is illegal or not.

BTW this is not me trying to circumvent the rules but I honestly don't know right now what is actually not permitted in law vs what is merely "guidance". Anyone else?

OP posts:
IntermittentParps · 17/12/2020 15:03

AcornAutumn, yes, hotels, holiday lets, B&Bs etc in Tier 3 must close, but there are a fw exceptions – they can open for someone who needs to stay there for work (I don't know how they're meant to police that or if the government will be checking up Confused and for weird things like if it's a voting venue.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 17/12/2020 15:07

treening but the laws are the laws and, as BJ and CW repeated so very often last night, the guidelines ARE a moral choice for us all!

But non of the journos last night seemed to understand that either....

AcornAutumn · 17/12/2020 15:12

@CuriousaboutSamphire

treening but the laws are the laws and, as BJ and CW repeated so very often last night, the guidelines ARE a moral choice for us all!

But non of the journos last night seemed to understand that either....

Perhaps people don’t agree with you. I don’t watch the briefings, I’m sure lots of people don’t.

Another good source of clarity on the law is the “law or fiction” website.

Parps do you mean voting for AGMs etc?

Lougle · 17/12/2020 15:14

'should' is guidance, 'must' is law. But generally, if they have gone to the bother of writing it, you should follow it.

To give context, in education there is a SEN Code of Practice. Any clause that says 'must' would be illegal for LAs to ignore. If it says 'should', the onus would be on the LA to argue why it didn't follow guidance on that issue.

AcornAutumn · 17/12/2020 15:18

@Lougle

'should' is guidance, 'must' is law. But generally, if they have gone to the bother of writing it, you should follow it.

To give context, in education there is a SEN Code of Practice. Any clause that says 'must' would be illegal for LAs to ignore. If it says 'should', the onus would be on the LA to argue why it didn't follow guidance on that issue.

Totally false equivalence.
IntermittentParps · 17/12/2020 15:22

Acorn, the govt website says 'to enable voting, including an overseas election'
I think it means voting as in if there were a by- or general election or whatever.

mommybunny · 17/12/2020 15:23

This may be a dumb question but I’m in an area that is moving into Tier 3 tomorrow but I’m literally three houses away from the Tier 2 border. My supermarket is in Tier 2 - I’d have to travel miles out of my way to go shopping in Tier 3. Am I breaking the law by going shopping in Tier 2?

AcornAutumn · 17/12/2020 15:25

@mommybunny

This may be a dumb question but I’m in an area that is moving into Tier 3 tomorrow but I’m literally three houses away from the Tier 2 border. My supermarket is in Tier 2 - I’d have to travel miles out of my way to go shopping in Tier 3. Am I breaking the law by going shopping in Tier 2?
No, you’re not.
AcornAutumn · 17/12/2020 15:26

@IntermittentParps

Acorn, the govt website says 'to enable voting, including an overseas election' I think it means voting as in if there were a by- or general election or whatever.
Oh So maybe they will have elections in 2021. Interesting, thanks.
IntermittentParps · 17/12/2020 15:33

Maybe, although I suspect they're just trying to cover their arse. It also says they can be opened for 'any purpose as requested by the Secretary of State'.

Lurkingforawhile · 17/12/2020 15:36

I've read the legislation, so just checking. I don't think it's illegal for me to go for a walk or bike ride over the border. We're tier three, and half a mile up the road is tier two. I'm not even sure the guidance says to avoid it!

PodgeBod · 17/12/2020 15:42

I'm confused as well. I'm entitled to a support bubble but I've been moved into tier 3. Am I allowed to bubble up with a household in another tier? I would really appreciate it if someone knows the answer because I can't work it out!

RedToothBrush · 17/12/2020 16:03

@mommybunny

This may be a dumb question but I’m in an area that is moving into Tier 3 tomorrow but I’m literally three houses away from the Tier 2 border. My supermarket is in Tier 2 - I’d have to travel miles out of my way to go shopping in Tier 3. Am I breaking the law by going shopping in Tier 2?
You are not breaking the law.
RedToothBrush · 17/12/2020 16:04

@PodgeBod

I'm confused as well. I'm entitled to a support bubble but I've been moved into tier 3. Am I allowed to bubble up with a household in another tier? I would really appreciate it if someone knows the answer because I can't work it out!
Yes you are. But EVERYONE in your bubble must now follow T3 rules even if they live in a lower tier.
RedToothBrush · 17/12/2020 16:05

@Lurkingforawhile

I've read the legislation, so just checking. I don't think it's illegal for me to go for a walk or bike ride over the border. We're tier three, and half a mile up the road is tier two. I'm not even sure the guidance says to avoid it!
You can go for a walk. You are advised not to but its not illegal.
CuriousaboutSamphire · 17/12/2020 16:09

My apologies Acorn I forgot that this is not the best place for reasoned debate about such things.

I shall bow out...

AcornAutumn · 17/12/2020 17:06

RedToothbrush “ Yes you are. But EVERYONE in your bubble must now follow T3 rules even if they live in a lower tier.”

What does that mean in law please?

I admit I’m asking out of curiosity, I’m in Tier 3 as is my bubble so we can only legally meet outside anyway.

username6895 · 17/12/2020 17:20

I think it depends on the company. I have seen centreparcs saying they won't accept guests from tier 3 areas. However I am currently in a tier 3 and recently had no choice but to travel for business into a tier 2. I thought I would have to explain to the hotel I was staying in it was essential business I even took some evidence. They didn't ask a thing. I think a lot of hotels just need the money and will look the other way.

RedToothBrush · 17/12/2020 17:20

@AcornAutumn

RedToothbrush “ Yes you are. But EVERYONE in your bubble must now follow T3 rules even if they live in a lower tier.”

What does that mean in law please?

I admit I’m asking out of curiosity, I’m in Tier 3 as is my bubble so we can only legally meet outside anyway.

You can mix indoors with your household but you can't meet anyone else indoors anywhere nor in a back garden.

And you shouldnt go to a pub or restaurant even if they are open in your area if a member of your extended household is in t3. (though this isnt legal)

AcornAutumn · 17/12/2020 17:23

Red - that’s what I was thinking, it’s not actually law.

AnneElliott · 17/12/2020 20:42

Yes the travel guidance is not law and you cannot be fined for travelling between tiers, nor going to shops in a different tier.

What is law are the rules around not meeting indoors in tiers 2&3 and only eating out with your household in Tier 2.

Plus the rules on numbers outside. So no more than 6 in a group. Breach these and you can be fined.

MrsSchadenfreude · 17/12/2020 21:33

So I am in London. My Mum is in Berkshire, which has just gone into tier 3. She has no-one in her bubble and hasn’t seen anyone in person (apart from a friend who drops her shopping) since I last saw her in September. Can I go and see her and co-opt her into my bubble? Or do I have to wait to go and see her until 23/24 December? She lives in the arse end of nowhere. The trains there are generally empty, so I would feel quite safe, and I would walk to her house, which is about 40 minutes walk from the nearest station.

Mousehole10 · 17/12/2020 21:37

@MrsSchadenfreude

So I am in London. My Mum is in Berkshire, which has just gone into tier 3. She has no-one in her bubble and hasn’t seen anyone in person (apart from a friend who drops her shopping) since I last saw her in September. Can I go and see her and co-opt her into my bubble? Or do I have to wait to go and see her until 23/24 December? She lives in the arse end of nowhere. The trains there are generally empty, so I would feel quite safe, and I would walk to her house, which is about 40 minutes walk from the nearest station.
Does your mum live by herself? If so she can form one support bubble. You can be her support bubble if you aren't in any other support bubbles.
OrangeBananaFish · 17/12/2020 21:45

I'm in tier 2. I live 1.5 miles away from tier 3. I've been in and out of tier 3 loads of times. For shopping, appointments, running. I'm in a local facebook page for the nearest town (tier 3) and the number of times I see someone commenting that the police are stopping people travelling to tier 2 and fining people. I've not seen a single patrol stopping anyone.

Also me and DH popped to Costa last week (still in our tier 2 area, but not far from tier 3) and no-one asked if we were allowed in. So I agree to the perhaps looking the other way when people come in.

AcornAutumn · 17/12/2020 22:05

@MrsSchadenfreude

So I am in London. My Mum is in Berkshire, which has just gone into tier 3. She has no-one in her bubble and hasn’t seen anyone in person (apart from a friend who drops her shopping) since I last saw her in September. Can I go and see her and co-opt her into my bubble? Or do I have to wait to go and see her until 23/24 December? She lives in the arse end of nowhere. The trains there are generally empty, so I would feel quite safe, and I would walk to her house, which is about 40 minutes walk from the nearest station.
Oh my god, that’s awful.

Please see her! How is she coping?