I'm more angry with the government about the Xmas relaxation then the schools fiasco

[deckthehallswithginandtonic]

And I'm pretty livid about that!
I live in one of the London boroughs where schools decided to close yesterday, and where the government have bullied them into reopening. I'll be sending my DCs in as none of us are vulnerable and we have no Xmas plans outside of our household. But, lots of parents are angry and confused, and will now be risking fines if they keep their kids off.

But the more I think about the 5 day window next week where people will be allowed to mix indoors, the more bloody angry I get. On Today, Radio 4, this morning, they spoke to one of the Sage members (speaking independently). Yes, mixing indoors is very risky indeed. Yes they expect to see consequences. Immediately after, they spoke to an MP. But of course it's a good idea, and are expecting people to follow measures to keep themselves safe yada yada yada.

As with the beginning of all this, when we could look through what had already happened to Italy etc and plan accordingly, we can now look to the States, and the outcome of Thanksgiving. Yet we learn nothing.

And here we were in a situation where parents had the support of the school to start isolating in preparation for Xmas to increase safety for their families. But no, sorry, not allowed.

ARGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!

They know more people will die because of lifting restrictions. They will have a spreadsheet with the numbers on.

I cannot, CANNOT believe they are allowing the Christmas plans to go ahead. But they are.

I agree with you and generally listen to the scientist on covid in general... However I also see this is an extremely difficult decision for them to make as a huge proportion of people would mix with their families regardless of any restrictions in place. And then if they did that at Christmas, they would be less likely to stick to any rules going into the new year having already broken them...

Equally there are lots who will follow the science and be cautious and choose not to mix with other households.

In my family my nana is 82. I have one sister who attempted suicide during the first lockdown and one who has been diagnosed with a brain tymour. All have decided they would rather spend Christmas with family and enjoy it, of it's too be their last.I

Stupid question but... If schools are closed won't the mixing be cancelled out as hundreds aren't on buses, in classes every day. Is it not the same? We're not seeing anyone btw. Isolating just us as I'm on my nhs job till Xmas eve so decided I'm a weak link

Totally agree. I mean yes, thick people will do it anyway but don't give them permission! it's like it is actually encouraging people.

They should just say they've reviewed the current data and people need to stick to their own households only, barring those who are terminally ill or live alone.

@viccat

I agree with you and generally listen to the scientist on covid in general... However I also see this is an extremely difficult decision for them to make as a huge proportion of people would mix with their families regardless of any restrictions in place. And then if they did that at Christmas, they would be less likely to stick to any rules going into the new year having already broken them...

Equally there are lots who will follow the science and be cautious and choose not to mix with other households.

Are you working for the government?

I agree completely with the op.

I completely agree with you OP. It's exhausting.

The government placates the masses - here you go, have what you want, we don't want to upset you
Equally, a lot of society seems to be happy to go along with it because 'it's in the rules'
Where is reasoned thought? I have friends with vulnerable relatives who are going to see them because 'the government have said it is okay'
I don't follow the government line, I do my own research and come to my own conclusions and we will not be seeing vulnerable relatives on the 23rd-27th. DC finish school on the 18th, that gives 5 days max for us to isolate. The incubation period is 10-14 days.

Go figure

Question is what does 'living alone' actually mean? Per the law it's obvious, but plenty of people live in random house shares with people they don't know/never see/can barely stand. Don't see how that's massively different to living alone, it's actually worse as if you live alone you can form a support bubble.

@cheninblanc

Stupid question but... If schools are closed won't the mixing be cancelled out as hundreds aren't on buses, in classes every day. Is it not the same? We're not seeing anyone btw. Isolating just us as I'm on my nhs job till Xmas eve so decided I'm a weak link

I would imagine there will be thousands of people spending Christmas with a mix of households including relatives they haven’t seen for ages and children who will have been mixing in large groups in schools up until the week before.

I think the government are well aware that nobody is going to be airing their houses by leaving all the windows open and the patio doors ajar to improve ventilation over Christmas. There will be a mixing of people that are super excited as they haven’t seen each other-whack up the heating, throw in good food, plenty of booze and presents and you have a nice warm Petri dish for covid just waiting to happen.

@cheninblanc

Stupid question but... If schools are closed won't the mixing be cancelled out as hundreds aren't on buses, in classes every day. Is it not the same? We're not seeing anyone btw. Isolating just us as I'm on my nhs job till Xmas eve so decided I'm a weak link

Xmas mixing involves people travelling all over the country (including people travelling from areas with low number of cases to high number and vice versa) and spending long periods of time indoors with others from multiple households (not everyone will stick to 3) that they don't normally mix with. So adding a whole bunch of new transmission paths in, that don't usually exist.

Plus the "don't kill granny" message - there will be more mixing with elderly and vulnerable people who are more likely to be hospitalised if they catch Covid. Most school children are asymptomatic or will catch Covid in a minor way, so don't have any impact on hospitals.

why are so many so quick to accept that relaxing restrictions over Christmas will result in a surge of new infections? Increased transmission opportunities within families during that period will be accompanied by decreased transmission opportunities in education settings, workplaces and leisure or hospitality venues.

It could well be that the total number of interactions during the Christmas period will be fairly minimal compared to e we hat is currently happening

If they lockdown hard, a huge number of people will ignore them.

The U.K. is policed by consent, we don't have military police, so how do you suggest a curfew or travel ban are enforced?

I’m hoping people in those boroughs who want to keep their kids home will just do it anyway and say the kids are sick. We are playing a game of wait and see atm in an adjoining borough. Ten numbers are crazy here. Our primary had one class sent home today in our school. Parents of other classes have not been officially notified by the school, but it’s allover the grapevine obvs. Gavin Williamson is a bloody disgrace.

Alectrevally00n6 that's what I was wandering too

I have been isolating since Saturday with my daughter so we can see my parents at Christmas. I have taken her out of school so we can do this - school we're fine with this and won't be fining. I work from home. As I am in a single adult household, we are in a bubble with my parents and can see them anytime - but we don't as we live in Kent, the worst hit region currently. I dread to think what will happen if people see vulnerable relatives without isolating.

@AlecTrevelyan006

why are so many so quick to accept that relaxing restrictions over Christmas will result in a surge of new infections? Increased transmission opportunities within families during that period will be accompanied by decreased transmission opportunities in education settings, workplaces and leisure or hospitality venues.

It could well be that the total number of interactions during the Christmas period will be fairly minimal compared to e we hat is currently happening

it's not about numbers only, it is about who is exposed. Family gatherings are likely to include older people who are at much more risk of severe disease and death.

People seem to have this bravado saying, I'd rather see my family or be dead, and for some that is true I expect, but I do wonder if many people, confronted with how quickly Covid can cause death to older people would re-think. I would suggest that obligatory viewing for those in denial is to watch Hospital that was on BBC last night where they showed the sad, frightening and fast (11 day) demise of an 89 year old woman who went from sitting up in bed chatting, doing crosswords and listening to music, to being so ill she passed away with little possibility to have any family visits.

If people are near life end or in a mental health crisis then seeing family may be a necessary choice for them but for those who can hold out a bit longer, avoiding extending the spread so that January is not carnage in the hospitals and for healthcare workers surely could be an aim for the country? What healthcare workers are going through, both with Covid and with cancellations of other healthcare, due to Covid spread, is unimagineable.

Respect to the patients and to the families who allowed their loved ones final days to be shown to help us all better understand what this disease is creating in a system that was already over capacity and under resourced
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000qf3n

Increased transmission opportunities within families during that period will be accompanied by decreased transmission opportunities in education settings, workplaces and leisure or hospitality venues.

Yes, I’m expecting that the infection rate will go down in the most infected subset of the population - secondary children, as they won’t be mixing freely together.

Unfortunately they’ll be mixing more widely with older and more vulnerable people so expect the infection rates to increase in those groups.

It’s about who is being infected.

@AlecTrevelyan006

why are so many so quick to accept that relaxing restrictions over Christmas will result in a surge of new infections? Increased transmission opportunities within families during that period will be accompanied by decreased transmission opportunities in education settings, workplaces and leisure or hospitality venues.

It could well be that the total number of interactions during the Christmas period will be fairly minimal compared to e we hat is currently happening

It's a specific kind of mixing that's known to be high risk. Up to three households together, how many people is that? And inside houses, likely sharing food, not staying two m away from each other, not wearing masks. I don't thick any scientist out there would deny that the people who chose to do this are putting themselves in a very high risk situation.

@Mintjulia

If they lockdown hard, a huge number of people will ignore them.

The U.K. is policed by consent, we don't have military police, so how do you suggest a curfew or travel ban are enforced?

Who's asking for a curfew or travel ban?

@AlecTrevelyan006

I agree with you.

I understand the point about the elderly, however many of them are at the "fuck it, it might be my last" point. My nan is. Her own words "this is no life". She needs to see people.

It's a specific kind of mixing that's known to be high risk. Up to three households together, how many people is that? And inside houses, likely sharing food, not staying two m away from each other, not wearing masks.

Schools are worse than this all day ever day and have been since September.

@Hercwasonaroll

It's a specific kind of mixing that's known to be high risk. Up to three households together, how many people is that? And inside houses, likely sharing food, not staying two m away from each other, not wearing masks.

Schools are worse than this all day ever day and have been since September.

I think the phrase "two wrongs don't make a right" probably applies here.

@Flowersinthewindowstill

Question is what does 'living alone' actually mean? Per the law it's obvious, but plenty of people live in random house shares with people they don't know/never see/can barely stand. Don't see how that's massively different to living alone, it's actually worse as if you live alone you can form a support bubble.

This is me. Thank you for addressing this. It is truly heartbreaking. I've followed every rule up to now and have been being extra careful over the last couple of weeks ahead of visiting my family for Xmas. All low risk. And it feels like I am getting penalised because the government kept schools open. I'm not saying schools should shut or not. I just don't think others should be penalised. It has been a hard year for us all. Why can't people just be sensible? Not everyone wanting to mix is 'thick' as someone above suggested. Some of us are actually taking precautions ahead of meeting. There are other illnesses than covid. Mental health is extremely important and let me tell you, if they back track on Christmas now, I will spiral back in to depression.

[quote Hercwasonaroll]@AlecTrevelyan006

I agree with you.

I understand the point about the elderly, however many of them are at the "fuck it, it might be my last" point. My nan is. Her own words "this is no life". She needs to see people.[/quote]
Absolutely this. If I was in my 80s/90s now I wouldn't give a fuck about getting covid if it meant getting out of what is essentially being imprisoned in my own home for possibly one of the last years of my life.