I'm more angry with the government about the Xmas relaxation then the schools fiasco

[deckthehallswithginandtonic]

And I'm pretty livid about that!
I live in one of the London boroughs where schools decided to close yesterday, and where the government have bullied them into reopening. I'll be sending my DCs in as none of us are vulnerable and we have no Xmas plans outside of our household. But, lots of parents are angry and confused, and will now be risking fines if they keep their kids off.

But the more I think about the 5 day window next week where people will be allowed to mix indoors, the more bloody angry I get. On Today, Radio 4, this morning, they spoke to one of the Sage members (speaking independently). Yes, mixing indoors is very risky indeed. Yes they expect to see consequences. Immediately after, they spoke to an MP. But of course it's a good idea, and are expecting people to follow measures to keep themselves safe yada yada yada.

As with the beginning of all this, when we could look through what had already happened to Italy etc and plan accordingly, we can now look to the States, and the outcome of Thanksgiving. Yet we learn nothing.

And here we were in a situation where parents had the support of the school to start isolating in preparation for Xmas to increase safety for their families. But no, sorry, not allowed.

ARGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!

I think the phrase "two wrongs don't make a right" probably applies here.

Also the phrase "not many households will have over 30 people mixing daily".

@Hapixmas i have so much sympathy for your situation. My MIL lives alone, and we have her the choice re coming to stay or not. She's going to stay away. If she'd come, then we'd have tried to mitigate the risk as much as possible.
I absolutely think there needed to be plans in place so people who are alone or at risk of isolation could spend time with their loved ones this Xmas. I don't think that saying three households could form a single bubble for five days, and not absolutely spell out the increased risk of infection and that people need to be following the existing guidelines to reduce that risk - social distancing, mask wearing, ventilation, not sharing food etc. I know that a lot of people wouldn't necessarily follow those guidelines, but that would be personal choice. It is a complete dereliction of duty by the government to have not made this absolutely crystal clear.

I'm fairness they have been pretty clear on 3 households.

I still think overall we will see less mixing than is taking place in schools.

@Hercwasonaroll do you really not think that three multi-generational households spending several days inside together, eating together, hugging etc, is lower risk than a class of primary kids in a class with the windows open, breaks outside, and not sharing equipment?

is lower risk than a class of primary kids in a class with the windows open, breaks outside, and not sharing equipment?

You we obviously not been in a school lately.

Robert Peston has tweeted this tonight.

It would be very typical of Johnson to prioritise his popularity over health and jobs. Plus the January fallout will hopefully provide him with a good distraction from No Deal Brexit fallout.

@Hercwasonaroll

is lower risk than a class of primary kids in a class with the windows open, breaks outside, and not sharing equipment?

You we obviously not been in a school lately.

You're justifying my concerns, to be honest.

How?

I'm in a secondary school. We have 30 students in the same room all day, mix in a year group bubble in the canteen for break and lunch. That's 240 close contacts a day for each kid.

Being in a house with 10 ish people is far less contact.

The primary I visited the kids were all over each other at break time. The classroom time they're sat next to each other (probably closer than in a house unless you're on a sofa).

windows open Not in my school they aren't. We don't have opening windows.

not sharing equipment have you met kids? (or are you Dr Harries 'they can bring a lunch box but not a pencil case to school' in disguise?!

You seem to be missing the point with your title OP.

If the govt. Had sorted out the imevitable "school fiasco" before they went back in September non of the Christmas restrictions would be needed.

Schools have fueled the spread. Govt. Have ignored this. So many of us have been saying this and been shouted down on this board.

I pulled my child out of school last Friday as did many people i know, to minimise the risk over Christmas. If the govt. Had supported this (earlier) we wouldn't be in this situation of Christmas being cancelled etc

@Hercwasonaroll
You are right. I don't work in a school. And I feel for those that do right now. But the shit situation in schools does not in an way make mixing three multi-generational households indoors for five days any safer. Secondary schools are a risk and Xmas mixing is a risk. It's not either or, it's a fact.

@Iremembertheelderlykoreanlady I don't disagree with you.
And if everyone who planned on mixing at Xmas was able to isolate for 10days before then all would be well. But most people either can't, or just wouldn't because they don't see the need

Secondary schools are a risk and Xmas mixing is a risk. It's not either or, it's a fact.

Primary schools are a risk too.

I'm not saying family mixing is safe. I'm saying that most families will have fewer contacts over the 2 weeks in pure numbers. I understand the risk to the elderly. However I'm expecting to see a fall in cases over Christmas.

The shit will hit the fan once schools go back in January.

I don't follow the government line, I do my own research and come to my own conclusions and we will not be seeing vulnerable relatives on the 23rd-27th. DC finish school on the 18th, that gives 5 days max for us to isolate. The incubation period is 10-14 days.

No its not. The average incubation time is 4-5 days. The isolation period after contact with a positive case has recently been reduced to 10 days based on this fact.

@Passmeabottlemrjones but she's right that there is still a risk at 10days so it makes sense to be cautious.

Most people will isolate from Friday til 23rd which is 5 days so should be some level of protection.

I don't see how you think infection spread will be higher than when schools are open. I predict a Christmas dip and then mid January it will be crazy town lockdown again.

I’m past caring to be honest. If people don’t care about passing it to their families I don’t see why I should be bothered about it. It’s open to everyone including the vulnerable who have capacity to make their own decisions about Christmas. If they can stay away from me and my family though it would be appreciated.

It the vulnerable that get Covid19 two weeks after Christmas from someone who mixed at Christmas that I feel so angry for.
So many people saying my parents to either are not vulnerable, or have chosen to see us regardless. But then that person gives Covid to their parent who passes it on to someone in Asda who then dies, said parent has a mild illness.

So many people saying my parents to either are not vulnerable, or have chosen to see us regardless. But then that person gives Covid to their parent who passes it on to someone in Asda who then dies, said parent has a mild illness.

Could happen anyway with schools as they are.

The Christmas situation has annoyed me since the start but I then feel like MadameBlobby because there’s bugger all I can do about it and stressing isn’t helping.

The risk is with people mixing. It will re enter schools but again I can’t change that.

OP you say if your MIL had chosen to stay with your family at Christmas you would have 'mitigated the risk' as much as possible. Why do you think other people are incapable of doing the same?

My DF is coming to us - I can assure you I'll also be doing all I can to mitigate the risks too. When I pick him up I'll be wearing a mask, as will he - he'll be sat in the back of my car. We will all sanitise our hands throughout the day and keep the patio doors open as much as we can. Nobody will be hugging him and he'll sit in his usual armchair probably working his way through the chocolates and leaving the wrappers in the tin

People might be less angry if they assumed the majority would act exactly like they would rather than think everyone is stupid.

@Hercwasonaroll Could happen anyway with schools as they are. I think we should have closed schools last Friday and restrict mixing. We already had support bubbles so nobody was alone. I think bubbles should have been allowed to swap so a daughter could visit her mum instead of a neighbour being a bubble for example. Also those with adult children or shared houses should have been able to visit a friend or relative but that’s it.

@lemmein

OP you say if your MIL had chosen to stay with your family at Christmas you would have 'mitigated the risk' as much as possible. Why do you think other people are incapable of doing the same?

My DF is coming to us - I can assure you I'll also be doing all I can to mitigate the risks too. When I pick him up I'll be wearing a mask, as will he - he'll be sat in the back of my car. We will all sanitise our hands throughout the day and keep the patio doors open as much as we can. Nobody will be hugging him and he'll sit in his usual armchair probably working his way through the chocolates and leaving the wrappers in the tin

People might be less angry if they assumed the majority would act exactly like they would rather than think everyone is stupid.

No I don't think people are incapable, but I also think a lot of people won't. There are threads on here about how people plan to adapt Xmas to keep family safe, and a large number of people of them saying that it's crazy and they won't be doing anything different at all.

And having one family member over is far less risky than three larger households.

And although it's really sad, DH and I are really relieved that MIL has chosen to stay away.

Absolutely this. If I was in my 80s/90s now I wouldn't give a fuck about getting covid if it meant getting out of what is essentially being imprisoned in my own home for possibly one of the last years of my life.

secretllama You don't get to speak on behalf of 80/90 year-olds, most of whom I'm sure do give a fuck about getting COVID given it is a particularly unpleasant way to die. Additionally, I'm certain they wouldn't wish to pass it on to any of their loved ones or carers, etc. But you do you.