Why is covid ripping through secondary schools?

[noblegiraffe]

As the press seem unable to find some photos of what schools actually look like at the moment, I thought I'd try to find some myself. They aren't current school photos but pretty much reflect the day-to-day.

1st is a typical classroom in terms of space. Fewer kids than normal though.

2nd is a typical corridor (except much cleaner). Yes they are wearing masks but they are also so close as to be touching. Note the kid with the mask half off, nose out, he has probably just been told to put it on by a teacher. What's unusual is that the kids all have a mask and none are being worn on chins. Also, they're on their phones. Tut.

3rd is what a typical break time looks like. Note the clumps of kids and the boys grappling. No masks, obvs.

Any ideas as to why secondary pupils are the most infected subset of the population?

I wonder too if its simply that primary kids are asymptomatic or dont dispkay the main 3 symptoms, so have covid but aren't tested?

We're in a low tier 2 area. Its still spreading like wildfire. Many schools only tell parents affected/year the case is in so I suspect many parent s naiivelybthink their school is fine 🙄. You can check with local council whcih schools are affected though...

@FrangipaniBlue

DS secondary has 1400 pupils plus staff.

Something like 70-80% of pupils travel from out of catchment on buses.

There have been NINE cases since September, three of which gave it to each other during half term.

They are reported the highest attendance rates for a winter term in years as due to wearing masks (everywhere except classrooms), encouraging good hand hygiene and social distancing pupils aren't sharing other illnesses that they usually would at this time of year.

Question for me is, why is there such differences between schools like DSs and some of the schools posters on here have mentioned??

Research shows that most people with Covid hardly spread it to anyone. But a few spread it to LOTS. - superspreaders. So it is luck whether you have a superspreader. Also - it needs superspreader ideal conditions - indoors, poorly ventilated, crowded, long exposure.... Ie classrooms. So if a school does get a superspreader it can really get hit. If it doesn't, it will just reflect community levels of infection.

It's definitely mysterious why the figures look so different for years 2 to 6 compared to 7 to 11. Is that a biological difference or a difference in behaviour?

It's a difference between primary school at 100-200 pupils vs secondary at +1000 under one roof. Secondary also get bubbles. When they get to secondary school they also become 'teens' with peer pressure to not wash hands/ be disgusting etc etc etc

NOT BUBBLES but BUSES

@notevenat20

It's definitely mysterious why the figures look so different for years 2 to 6 compared to 7 to 11. Is that a biological difference or a difference in behaviour?

I think both.

I think puberty has an effect on the ability to transmit the virus, and whether you show symptoms or not.

Behaviour in primary and secondary schools is hugely different as well. In primary, you don't have the 4-6x daily transitions in the corridor, students interact with far fewer adults and peers, classes can be completely bubbled off from each other.

There are also differences in transport to school- secondary students usually make their own way, either walking in groups or via public transport or school bus. Whereas primary students tend to walk with a parent or be dropped off by car.

I also think there are differences in out of school behaviour.

These are obviously huge generalisations.

@singingstones

At my sister’s school, all the humanities staff are off, apart from one. They have new cases amongst the students every day. Their risk assessment says that teachers must remain 2m from students at all times, which isn’t possible in some classrooms. But a teacher is off sick with COVID and admits to being within 2m of anyone, they will face disciplinary action for not following the risk assessment. The choice is disciplinary or keep quiet and put close contacts at risk.

Shocking.

In form time I have pupils within 2 metres of me because the room is so small. In many classroom we have pupils having to cross the teacher only zone to access their desks. Ridiculous

I have a theory that it's school and social differences

That's interesting. In the local secondary they are very restricted in the school day and only leave their one classroom for 30 minutes in the day but still seem to have a high infection rate.

I find it hard to pin a simple story to the data to be honest. Cases started going up in late August, we then had a lock down where schools were open and the numbers plummeted. This implies to me that schools were not the main driver over that period. In late November, during the lockdown, numbers started going back to again. Why?

Overall, maybe it's not surprising that secondary school children are the most infected now given the months of restrictions the rest of us have had.

But if masks work As presumed why shut shops and hairdressers as everyone wears a mask?

I wonder too if its simply that primary kids are asymptomatic or dont dispkay the main 3 symptoms, so have covid but aren't tested?

The ONS infection rate graphs posted above come from random sampling so picks up asymptomatic cases. Secondary are definitely more infected than primary.

In terms of most infected it goes
Secondary
Y12-age 24 so including sixth form and uni
Primary
Then 25-34 and 35-49.

It does seem very odd that some schools are hardly affected and other arenhotbeds!
I know the school buses won’t let kids on with out a mask, DD forgot hers the other day and was given one by the driver. The school is also ensuring kids are sticking to safety measures.
The kids schools are in rural areas with lots of kids on buses (but not public) most people drive as public transport or rubbish and doesn’t go where you need it to. We have very few multigenerational households. I haven’t really seen gangs of kids hangin out - maybe parents here are stricter about keeping kids in and off the streets?, I rarely see anyone in shops/supermarkets without a mask, it’s hard to say really why some towns are being less affected? I do know a lot of people including me and my family who were poorly with covid symptoms last Jan/Feb before covid was a ‘thing’ and a few of those people had been skiing! So maybe we all had it early and so less likely to catch it again?

Overall, maybe it's not surprising that secondary school children are the most infected now given the months of restrictions the rest of us have had.

Secondary kids were 2nd most infected since mid September behind uni students and we know what happened with them. Uni student infection rates were brought under control with mass testing, restrictions, remote learning. Nothing was done about secondary schools and they overtook uni students mid November.

@noblegiraffe

Can’t get current school photos, lljkk but they are much, much closer to reality than offerings in the news like this one (from today!)

That's what our school (overseas) has looked like for months, & I suspect it's how we'd managed so far.

& then the wheels came off last week & we've gone to distance learning.

Because KS4 & 5 were still partying every weekend, they've got younger siblings, & basically, we were ok until very suddenly we weren't.

Two days of year groups being sent home & then SMT (who've all looked visibly haggard this term to be fair) called it.

We are now online officially until mid January. If you asked me to bet, I don't think we'll be back in physically before spring half term.

Nervous as several of the confirmed cases are taught by me &/or in classes with my dc.

I'm resigned to catching it, but I'd rather not be laid up over Xmas (which will be an immediate family only affair.)

But if masks work As presumed why shut shops and hairdressers as everyone wears a mask?

I think they work as in reduce infection rates by 40% but not as in guarantee you to be safe.

It's how viruses work BrieAndChilli.

First, it seems like it's hardly there then suddenly everyone has it.

It won't affect the whole population uniformly at the same time, otherwise the pandemic would have been over and done with by May.

"We were ok until very suddenly we weren't."

Yep. That's it.

As to the differences between primary and secondary children, I posted this on another thread. (Others added that secondary pupils are more likely to travel by school bus or by train, whereas primary pupils might walk or travel by car.)

Primary children are generally:
Less likely to be infected (fewer ACE receptors etc)
More likely to be taught in smaller bubbles
More likely to be taught by the same staff every day
More likely to comply with hygiene measures in school when prompted
Relatively easy to persuade to be risk averse
Easier to keep indoors after school and control social interactions

Secondary children are generally:
More likely to be infected (especially the older ones)
More likely to be taught in larger bubbles, or faux-bubbles
More likely to be taught by multiple staff, often teaching across bubbles
Less likely to comply with hygiene measures, especially given the horrendous state of many school toilets
More likely to have a poor sense of individual/collective risk and difficult to persuade to be risk averse (they’re teenagers)
Difficult to keep indoors after school and control social interactions

But cases in secondary school aged children didn't plummet in the second lockdown. They continued to rise. They only dropped a bit in the week after half term - suggesting that any mixing outside school is negligible in comparison to in school. The figures/graphs are very easy to read.

Uni student infection rates were brought under control with mass testing, restrictions, remote learning.

I am not sure that's right. There was no mass testing in most unis and no restrictions put on students. What really happened is that huge numbers got infected and they were repeatedly isolated in their student flats after testing positive where they infected the rest of the students. They eventually recovered. Another section of the students just never left their accommodation the whole period except maybe to buy food or have never moved to the university town and are still at home.

But cases in secondary school aged children didn't plummet in the second lockdown. They continued to rise. They only dropped a bit in the week after half term - suggesting that any mixing outside school is negligible in comparison to in school.

Yes but the numbers in the general population plummeted. That's all I meant.

[quote mumsneedwine]@FrangipaniBlue why ? Luck. 4 weeks ago we had not had 1 case. We then had 1 and the following week we had to shut the school for 2 days. It is pure and simple luck. [/quote]
So in one school ONE CASE spread so fast the school closed but in another school at one point there were multiple cases at once that didn't spread further ?

I'm not buying that's just luck.

secondary are also mixing more on teh way into and out of school. either socialising in the streets, at the shop or on buses in comparison to primary going to and from school with a parent or their own calss bubble.

at break the kids at secondary are asked to keep to then same group of friends for mixing.

secondary kids behave like secondary kids. you are going to get socialising and risk taking and forgetting to keep themselves apart as that is what they do. it is hard as an adult to concentrate on staying apart all the time around say the supermarket, and not always possible to stay two metres apart if the aisle has people approaching you from both ends. How the hell are kids going to mamagae to concentrate on lessons, and socially distancing for 6 hours at a time, and they don't have a cat of hells chance of socially distancing at pinch points like doors at the beginning and end of breaks, and in corridors. corridors are narrow and airless. we try and move round them when doing parents evenings or open days.

@Danglingmod

But cases in secondary school aged children didn't plummet in the second lockdown. They continued to rise. They only dropped a bit in the week after half term - suggesting that any mixing outside school is negligible in comparison to in school. The figures/graphs are very easy to read.

Yeah, I think it's very clear that it's something relating to school that is driving most of the transmission.

But I think it's hard to pin things down to a single cause, and behaviour outside of school may be having some impact too- after all, someone in each school has to be the "patient zero" and bring it into the school.

at break the kids at secondary are asked to keep to then same group of friends for mixing.

You what now?

How on earth would that be policed?

Kids in our school are sent home if in contact with a positive case if they are within the 2 metre rule and spent more than 15 minutes with the infected kid... even when they have space the kids apparently are all sitting together in class. I begged my children to wear their masks at all times when In school after a period of self isolating. It's so worrying I wasn't going to send them in this week but the school sent an email out to say they are closed to all pupils except key-worker children and the vulnerable the relief was immense. I feel everyday I am sending them to school like lambs to slaughter. You just don't know.

Research shows that most people with Covid hardly spread it to anyone.
But a few spread it to LOTS. - superspreaders.
So it is luck whether you have a superspreader. Also - it needs superspreader ideal conditions - indoors, poorly ventilated, crowded, long exposure.... Ie classrooms. So if a school does get a superspreader it can really get hit. If it doesn't, it will just reflect community levels of infection.

This makes some sense.

But what makes a superspreader? Is it a different/mutation of the virus or is it the behaviour of the individual or something else physiological?