Anyone else find this slightly dystopian now ?

[Whitechocolatemarshmallow]

We may be 'allowed' to see families etc. Over Christmas but should be expected to 'pay' for this with subsequent lockdowns, and hugging will be banned.

Now, there's talk of a 'freedom pass' for people who test negative twice a week to allow them to live a more normal life, which they will be able to present should they be stopped and questioned.

What's coming next, having to show proof of vaccination status ?
I'm no conspiracy theorist and i'm fully aware that Covid is real.

Why are we willing to give up our old lives like this ?

@Whitechocolatemarshmallow

It's starting to get scary. People queuing like mindless zombies for an hour to get into Sainsbury's. Waiting to be told whether we are allowed to see our own parents or not. Women having to give birth alone. Having to leave your personal details to every pub or restaurant you go to.

I know absolutely no one who is following these rules anymore. No one. Even people who were following them the first time round.

Your post makes perfect sense to me, Hardbackwriter - in fact I should have included "making it look as if there's an endgame" in my list

@Orangeblossom7777

Why is it that anyone questioning things is always asked what their solution is?

Is it not possible to question things without having a solution?

You'd think they might have some idea what a better alternative might be.

@Quarantino

People seem surprised that the emergence of an infectious virus that spreads largely without symptoms and kills lots of people is dystopian? "a state where there is great suffering or injustice"? (The justice system is a huge casualty of the virus, btw, although it was in critical condition due to cuts anyway)

No shit.

I think people find it difficult to accept that Mother Nature can unleash something this detrimental to humanity and that we are so powerless against it (at least initially while science catches up). And so they seek to blame other humans, because by doing so it is easier to imagine they can do something about it.

But there will be an end point because of the vaccine.

However, if once a sufficient proportion of the population have been vaccinated in order to give us herd immunity, and reduce CV To the same level as the flu,and restrictions continue...then I'll be up in arms like the rest of you.

Until then I will stick by the rules.

FYI - The idea that you can only travel if vaccinated /free from disease is not new. There is a list of around 30 countries who cannot enter the UK unless they have a certificate to say they are clear from TB. Has been for ages. It just didn't register for anyone as it doesn't directly affect us

Research from China has just shown that asymptomatic positive cases don't spread the virus.

PhoebeSnow if you're talking about SA their response has quite frankly been a disaster.
Totally different, younger demographic so actually 25K isn't great and is likely to be significantly under counted due to the rural deaths.
The army has literally killed people enforcing lockdown.
The economy is trashed. Just downgraded to junk status. People physically starving up and down the country on huge numbers.
And cases are now climbing again anyway so all that harm for nothing.

I think people find it difficult to accept that Mother Nature can unleash something this detrimental to humanity and that we are so powerless against it

A disclaimer that I am not myself a Covid denier, or seeking to defend those that are

I don't think the people who think the restrictions are wrong or dystopian think that it's unbelievable that 'mother nature' would unleash a disease so terrible, I think they've probably heard of plague and ebola - it's the exact opposite, they think it's not particularly bad at all. Which is wrong, but because the impact of mass infection with a novel virus is so destructive, not because the disease itself is so unprecedent and awful.

People don't think this is wrong because they've never heard of a pandemic before, the fact that this clearly isn't bubonic plague is exactly why they think (in my view incorrectly) that we could do without restrictions.

I think the reason they are relaxing rules over Christmas is because they know that some families would still get together even if we were still in full lockdown and there's no way they could stop it.

It’s well established that the average of people dead is over 80

They estimated that if we did nothing then there would be 500000 dead. Let’s be pessimistic and say that would have been 600000.

We’ve pissed 350 billion up the wall and let’s say that at the end we come out with only 60000 dead - being optimistic

That means we’ve “saved” 540000 people - at a cost of £650,000 per person who let me remind you are mostly over 80 (let’s say 75 if we want to be pessimistic)

Someone needs to say was it worth it

I have felt like this for a long time. For me, it's the willingness of people to 'report' those around them, it's the people who openly vocalise their opinions and oppositin to people, sometimes complete strangers, breaking the 'rules' and they are told that shouting at people in shops means they are doing a justice to society. The way people have decided those who have caught coronavirus are obviously irresponsible rule breakers who want to kill their granny. The way people are almost in competition with each other for how miserable they are, but how everyone should be miserable, and how nobody should moan about being miserable because you could be dead, so get over it. The way a huge amount of people sit waiting to be given permission to do anything bar breathing, and have a shocking hatred for anyone who doesnt do the same.

People have become cold, blunt, lacking in all empathy, and willing to give all power to government to think for them.

@frozendaisy

Yes it does feel dystopian but the hope of a vaccine, real hope, makes it feel now like there is a time limit.

I think so too

Once the risk of the old and vulnerable getting sick drops I think life will improve a lot.

But yes it is utterly bonkers the whole thing when you think about it. The government who are actually elected to serve us and do what we want (put simply) imposing such draconian rules that no one voted for

Of course its dystopian but thankfully the fight back is starting with protests, MP rebellion and legal challenges to the activities of a corrupt government

@TransplantedScouser

It’s well established that the average of people dead is over 80

They estimated that if we did nothing then there would be 500000 dead. Let’s be pessimistic and say that would have been 600000.

We’ve pissed 350 billion up the wall and let’s say that at the end we come out with only 60000 dead - being optimistic

That means we’ve “saved” 540000 people - at a cost of £650,000 per person who let me remind you are mostly over 80 (let’s say 75 if we want to be pessimistic)

Someone needs to say was it worth it

So which one of your family members would you be prepared to sacrifice in return for £600000?

I don’t think you can really value human lives in financial terms like that. Plus the people who die still cost ££££ anyway because they still have to die receiving treatment for the illness in hospital.

In terms of the cost though if we are going to think about it in those terms, surely the financial cost of taking no restrictions must be greater than the costs of them? The Tories wouldn’t implement restrictions that cost this much including paying people’s wages unless the financial costs of not doing so would have been worse?

If Covid had the same death rate but killed mainly people in their 80s and over quickly without them needing to go to hospital I doubt very much we’d have seen anything like the same measures.

That means we’ve “saved” 540000 people - at a cost of £650,000 per person who let me remind you are mostly over 80 (let’s say 75 if we want to be pessimistic)

Someone needs to say was it worth it

I don’t think you can really value human lives in financial terms like that.

I would agree with you, but we DO already value human lives in financial terms, don’t we? How much does NICE value a life as when they decide who can die of cancer because it will be too expensive to provide them with drugs that could extend or save their life?

I don’t think you can really value human lives in financial terms like that.

Well, NICE disagrees - they've long been using cost per quality adjusted year as part of how they decide if drugs are worth the cost. And their usual limit is £20,000-£30,000 per quality adjusted life year. Every now and again there's a big fuss when they won't pay for a cancer drug because it's too expensive, but generally most people seem to have accepted that there is indeed a price that you can put on life.

Sorry, cross-post @Tolleshunt

Sorry, meant to attribute the first two quotes to transplantedScouser and the last to ‘MadamBlobby*.

Great minds Hardbackwriter!

We’re kind of back to that point where policy seems to be saying it’s ok to die unnecessarily of cancer but unacceptable to die of Covid.

Yes good points @Tolleshunt and @Hardbackwriter. I am still not sure looking at the financial value per life “saved” is quite the right way of looking at it though, because it’s not just those lives that would have cost the NHS a lot of money. The ones that die still do as well.

It's ridiculous to expect people to have 2 tests per week. The nearest test centre to me is a 2 hour car journey, so twice a week I'm to do a 4 hour round trip, whilst working a full time job, how the hell am I supposed to do that? Also what are we supposed to do whilst waiting for the results twice a week? Not go out? that will make it at least 3 maybe 4 days every week where I can't work.

I take your point MadamBlobby., people who die also cost money. In fairness, the NHS/govt has never been great at factoring in ALL costs of its actions, and tends to look at them in silos.

Well, NICE disagrees - they've long been using cost per quality adjusted year as part of how they decide if drugs are worth the cost. And their usual limit is £20,000-£30,000 per quality adjusted life year. Every now and again there's a big fuss when they won't pay for a cancer drug because it's too expensive, but generally most people seem to have accepted that there is indeed a price that you can put on life

Its the same with baby milk isn't it... its still cheaper to ply the babies with gaviscon , and thickener and land the cost of vast batches of sudecrem and trialing every nappy under the sun and washing piles of baby clothes in a daily basis than prescribe 30-50 plus pound tins of baby milk...

It’s well established that the average of people dead is over 80

They estimated that if we did nothing then there would be 500000 dead. Let’s be pessimistic and say that would have been 600000.

What impact do you think half a million people (yes the elderly are people too) dying in a short space of time would have on our health services?

We’ve pissed 350 billion up the wall and let’s say that at the end we come out with only 60000 dead - being optimistic

That means we’ve “saved” 540000 people - at a cost of £650,000 per person who let me remind you are mostly over 80 (let’s say 75 if we want to be pessimistic)

Someone needs to say was it worth it

The lockdown is to prevent health services, and other services, becoming overwhelmed and not just for people with covid

What is the alternative. Do we want a situation where anyone over a certain age is refused an ambulance, a GP, or any medical assistance at all. Should we have the modern equivalent of painting a big cross on their doors. Condemn them to death alone and in pain in their own home?

I dont get it

I've just been catching up on Sky News with potential plans for after 2nd December because I am a non-essential retailer and would like possibly to make some sales before Christmas, mainly so my poor yacht owning landlord isn't deprived of our rent and by extension I don't end up in debt and legal crap, the thought of which frankly makes me come over slightly Guy Fawkes at the moment.....

Anyhoo, there was a lovely segment about a place that sells Christmas trees (and decorations) which are apparently deemed essential. I am trying to be generous spirited and thinking that the place probably is also a farm shop with other fresh produce, or some other perfectly legitimate reason for being open, but it has rankled just a tiny weeny bit.

DP has just asked me whether we have a QR code on display in our shop for when we open again, because apparently our local police force has deemed not having one a legitimate reason to report businesses for not fulfilling our virus obligations, and has put out a FB post actively encouraging people to do so, along with not taking contact details, which as a clothing and lifestyle orientated outlet, I understood was not a legal obligation.

So yes, it is beginning to feel pretty dystopian to me because as fast as I think I have done all the right things, it seems no, I am thick as two short planks and have been miserably failing and should flagellate myself immediately.

As for twice weekly testing and vaccine passports..... I look forward so much to challenging potential customers if it comes to pass to prove they are not unclean. Thinking of stocking little bells for people who aren't "worthy" for whatever reason.

And maybe if I can lay hands on incense that smells like Christmas tress or whatever I will also become "essential".

I swear to God I'm a whisker away from an actual nervous breakdown at the moment.

Ho bloody ho.