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Coronavirus and care homes

172 replies

WinnieHarlow · 21/11/2020 08:39

Having just read the awful situation where 15 residents in a care home have died, surely allowing loved ones to visit could exacerbate this situation? Its a dreadful situation. Is a solution to seek alternative accommodation for the loved one in care, until Covid is over?

OP posts:
compulsiveliar2019 · 21/11/2020 17:52

@QueenOfTheDoubleWide

Part of the problem here is also greedy care home owners. They have milked money out of the system for years by charging residents and the state high fees while paying staff peanuts. They could have invested in facilities to enable some form of contact or visiting but chose not to. One home owner locally (an ex-nurse) has been very vocal that she shared advice to buy PPE and on infection control with other homes well ahead of the crisis but was ignored. Meanwhile another owner has decamped to their holiday home saying it is too dangerous to stay here yet doing nothing in response to complaints from families about the separation from their elderly relatives. We should not allow home owners to shirk their share of the responsibility
Rubbish!!! Most homes barely make a profit! Councils rarely pay what it cost to cover the clients they pay for and those paying their own way make up the losses. Add in entertainment, decent food and maintenance and there are very very few homes that make much profit!!!

You do realise too that if a client goes into hospital the council refuse to pay for their place in the home whilst they are in hospital!!! The homes costs remain the same however!!!

compulsiveliar2019 · 21/11/2020 17:56

[quote Schuyler]@compulsiveliar2019

There will be legal challenges as a result of both article 2 and article 8.
There will be those who challenge allowing visitors in and out of care homes under article 2 of the Human Rights Act.
We don’t know yet what the case law will say until people bring about challenges which they should!

What evidence do you have that there is a significant number of people (who have capacity) wanting to move out and being outright banned? If that is happening, a safeguarding should be raised ASAP. That is unacceptable. In my job, I’ve continued to help people move in and out of various care homes and supportEd living environments, even through lockdown. Younger adults with physically able parents returned to the family home. Some people actually moved to their own homes, finally. It’s been harder because home care agencies have had extra staff sickness due to Covid but people moving has always happened and hasn’t changed.[/quote]
Over a decade working in care!!!

I now run a Home care business and have had 6 phone calls this week alone looking for care for people trying to move out of care homes within a 20 mile radius of me!!
Many of my colleagues are reporting the same thing!!

Looking back through my phone and email records for the past month I have had 27 enquires. All but 1 was about coming out of care!
Enough proof???

knackersknockersknickers · 21/11/2020 17:59

[quote WinnieHarlow]@riaroth I read the Guardian article where families have attempted to do this 5 months ago and were prevented. So clearly there are elderly residents with less complex needs. And yes I’ve read the replies on here, and I value them all in terms of arguing my view.[/quote]
Why does that prove they had less complex needs? It was assessed they couldn't meet their needs as they weren't allowed to take them home.

WinnieHarlow · 21/11/2020 18:00

@compulsiveliar2019 I’m so glad you posted...

OP posts:
WinnieHarlow · 21/11/2020 18:02

@compulsiveliar2019 you are the best person posting here! What’s the answer??

OP posts:
tattooedmummy1 · 21/11/2020 18:05

[quote WinnieHarlow]@compulsiveliar2019 you are the best person posting here! What’s the answer??[/quote]
Because they agree with you. 😂😂👍🏻

compulsiveliar2019 · 21/11/2020 18:11

@WinnieHarlow thanks!

I don't know what the answer is. I don't think there is a one solution fits all just now.

I think if someone wants to leave and has the capacity to do so they should be allowed to leave.

I think the care sector as a whole needs a huge review of practises and policies around infection control. Care homes have always been a tricky environment in which to manage infection but that needs to change.

I think nightingale capacity could have and should have been used for positive care home clients for treatment, convalescence or palliative care. There should not have been positive cases kept in the care home putting the other clients and staff at increased risk.

I think clients within the home should have been bubbled along with staff caring for them.

I don't know it's a difficult call to make but I think individual homes and managers should have been given the autonomy to make decisions based on the needs of clients in their care. Not blanket policies across the board.

HitchikersGuide · 21/11/2020 18:18

This is going to be far too simplistic but that's inevitable within the confines of SM: I think the added difficulty we have now in this country and many other countries in the global North, is that medical care improvements have allowed for greater quantity of life but not for greater quality of life. So people are living longer but those extra years are often spent needing far greater levels of care than during the equivalent period of 'old age' in previous times.
In addition, we are very unhealthy as a population which leads to ever greater needs.
Both in the past here, and in other cultures where caring for very elderly family members is more common, there were, or are not (yet), the same levels of diet and lifestyle related illnesses, with the effect of those on old age.

cantkeepawayforever · 21/11/2020 18:22

I seem to remember that in the well-publicised case where an elderly relative was removed from a care home, she was in the case of a family member who was a fully qualified nurse and so was in a position to look after her expertly.

The indignity and risk of harm associated with inexpert but well-meaning family members without any of the correct equipment (lifting chairs, hoists, support frames, bed rails, etc etc etc) is significant.

QueenOfTheDoubleWide · 21/11/2020 18:28

@compulsiveliar2019 I didn't know that the councils refuse to pay for care if someone goes to hospital. I'm curious to know does the funding also stop for nursing home patients funded by the NHS? I don't think it does for privately funded patients as my friend's mother has been in hospital for over 2 months but they have still had to pay £800+ per week for her care home.

Maybe the profitability of homes varies from place to place. I live in a fairly affluent retirement area and care home owners here seem to be doing very nicely indeed. One home here, in the first lockdown was appealing for donations for PPE (they got stuff like plastic aprons and gloves donated by hotel and food companies who had had to close) but a quick Google of their accounts showed the two owners took £300k+ last year which I think could have paid for their own PPE quite honestly

WinnieHarlow · 21/11/2020 18:30

@compulsiveliar2019 judging by your posts, I think - as a manager- you should have been given the autonomy to make the decision. @tattooedmummy1 - it’s not because she agrees with me, it’s because she speaks perfect, considered sense.

OP posts:
WinnieHarlow · 21/11/2020 18:32

@HitchikersGuide what is the perfect end to life? To know that you are loved, valued and with the people who mean the most to you?

OP posts:
Haenow · 21/11/2020 18:33

@compulsiveliar2019

“I think if someone wants to leave and has the capacity to do so they should be allowed to leave.“

It’s good you think that too but it’s actually the law! Nobody, who is not under lawful obligation to remain somewhere (e.g MHA or DoLs), should be prevented from leaving.
If you are getting phone calls from people saying they’re looking for care having been ^prevented* from leaving, I hope your make an instant safeguarding referral. I don’t know if your work covers more than one local authority but if you’re noting an issue in on particular area or more than one area, you can raise it to the safeguarding board.

Schuyler · 21/11/2020 18:40

@QueenOfTheDoubleWide

Local authorities continue to pay unless giving notice. It’s usually 28 day notice period. LAs are highly unlikely to give notice unless they know the individual in hospital won’t be returning to the care setting.

compulsiveliar2019 · 21/11/2020 18:42

[quote QueenOfTheDoubleWide]@compulsiveliar2019 I didn't know that the councils refuse to pay for care if someone goes to hospital. I'm curious to know does the funding also stop for nursing home patients funded by the NHS? I don't think it does for privately funded patients as my friend's mother has been in hospital for over 2 months but they have still had to pay £800+ per week for her care home.

Maybe the profitability of homes varies from place to place. I live in a fairly affluent retirement area and care home owners here seem to be doing very nicely indeed. One home here, in the first lockdown was appealing for donations for PPE (they got stuff like plastic aprons and gloves donated by hotel and food companies who had had to close) but a quick Google of their accounts showed the two owners took £300k+ last year which I think could have paid for their own PPE quite honestly[/quote]
I'm not sure 100% about nhs funded clients in nursing homes but I imagine it only private clients that still have to pay whilst in hospital! Getting nhs funding in the first place is an absolute nightmare! I have been assisting a former client to get it for a family member and they have been refused again despite ticking every single box for it! 😡
I guess it does depend a bit on the ratio of private to non private clients. I know several homes near me are almost on the brink right now as they have a high number of council beds combined with having lost several individuals.
I guess private care homes can weather the storms a lot better

compulsiveliar2019 · 21/11/2020 18:43

[quote Schuyler]@QueenOfTheDoubleWide

Local authorities continue to pay unless giving notice. It’s usually 28 day notice period. LAs are highly unlikely to give notice unless they know the individual in hospital won’t be returning to the care setting.[/quote]
That's not true in our area for sure!

cantkeepawayforever · 21/11/2020 18:43

@cantkeepawayforever

I seem to remember that in the well-publicised case where an elderly relative was removed from a care home, she was in the case of a family member who was a fully qualified nurse and so was in a position to look after her expertly.

The indignity and risk of harm associated with inexpert but well-meaning family members without any of the correct equipment (lifting chairs, hoists, support frames, bed rails, etc etc etc) is significant.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-54366336

"Sue recently retired as a nurse, so feels confident that she can care for Rita. But she says she's aware that many families in a similar situation would not have the space, time, or experience to do the same thing."

My very elderly parents live together in their own bungalow at the moment. Their nearest RELATIVE lives 100 miles away, though their nearest FRIEND lives next door. When one of them needs more care than the other can possible give them - my mother has dementia - then it may well be better for them to go into a care home where they currently live, where the other partner is close, and in normal times they have a host of friends to visit daily. Moving hundreds of miles to where we. their children, have made their homes, but where my parents know nobody, is not necessarily a better solution, and i am sure it is the same for many scattered families.

DappledOliveGroves · 21/11/2020 18:52

You're deluded, OP. My mother is 81, has dementia and has been in a care home for four years. Since Covid hit, a number of those at her care home have died from it. Residents have been forcibly locked in their rooms for weeks at a time at the height of the pandemic. Funnily enough, since these people have dementia, they can't understand why they're locked in their rooms and deprived of the very basic rights of wandering around the corridors.

I have seen my mother once since this all locked off. At a 2 metre distance with a huge table between us. Most of her language has gone so we can't have a conversation. Her sight is poor and for the 20 minute visit I had, most of the time, she had no clue I was there nor any idea of why she was sitting in a vestibule whilst I sat in a garden tent outside of the main door.

Why on earth do you think prioritising her life, and those around her, is desirable or humane? Do you think that the vibrant, intelligent woman she was would want to live like she does? So you think she'd want to be denied the opportunity of seeing her family or going outside for months on end, just so she doesn't die? She always asked us to suffocate her or push her over a cliff if she ever got dementia and yet here we are, with her being stuck in a care home, surrounded by others with dementia, merely existing. And we've brought the country to its knees and screwed over the generation of young people to keep people like my mother alive. It's ridiculous.

I just pray that they'll have euthanasia if I'm ever in a similar position.

WinnieHarlow · 21/11/2020 18:59

@DappledOliveGroves Because - even when she is so confused, she does still have rights. Your post has stunned be tbh.

OP posts:
WinnieHarlow · 21/11/2020 19:00

Stunned me

OP posts:
WinnieHarlow · 21/11/2020 19:01

Surely all human life is valuable? I just feel like crying.

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RiaRoth · 21/11/2020 19:04

[quote WinnieHarlow]@HitchikersGuide - again I really like your posts. How do other cultures cope? - and what would have happened 40 years ago without the advent of care homes?[/quote]
People didn't live so long with such complex needs 40 years ago.

WinnieHarlow in one way I love your innocent view on this. If it were as simple as lets bring them home dont you think the family who love and cherish their relatives would have done this. Residents are allowed to leave.

RiaRoth · 21/11/2020 19:09

@WinnieHarlow

Surely all human life is valuable? I just feel like crying.
This is another thread but when you have more experience of dementia sufferers it will open you mind to quality of life
HitchikersGuide · 21/11/2020 19:21

DappledOlive
That is heart rending. It's such an emotive topic and like everything in current times, discussion becomes binary and it's easy to lambast those who say what you have said, so I just wanted to say that I have huge sympathy.

compulsiveliar2019 · 21/11/2020 19:35

@DappledOliveGroves I agree it's inhumane the way all clients in care homes have been treated. None of them should have been locked in their room or even in the care home itself. It's cruel and wrong!
I understand the need to protect people but I do wonder what we are protecting them for just now. It's certainly not for their sake! The number of excess dementia deaths this year is huge! 10,000 in April! Those are non covid excess dementia deaths - purely down to lack of stimulation and lack of a reason to live. People with dementia decline very very rapidly off their physical and cognitive needs are not met.