Christmas rule breaking and policing

[BuffaloCauliflower]

This isn’t a debate about what rules there should be or not be at Christmas, and whether or not people should or shouldn’t break them, but let’s assume that it’s likely we’ll be back to some form of ‘the rule of 6’ for Christmas, maybe not including children in the number, maybe it’ll be 8 instead of 6, who knows, but its unlikely to be the normal course of events.

In practice, many people will break these rules to at least some extent, and is there really any chance of it being policed anyway? The police literally won’t have the resources to go and check all the houses that may have too many people in them and it would be a waste of their time And resources anyway when I’m sure they’ll be needed more elsewhere. Perhaps if there’s a massive party somewhere it might be worth it. But ultimately there will be no policing of the rules so it’ll be up to each person/household what they choose to do anyway surely?

I think police would be vanishingly unlikely to attend unless there's a full on noisy party happening with randoms turning up continuously.

I think most people will probably be sensible. Couples with dc I reckon most will just stay home and video call family etc. I think this year we might see more of couples without children spending the day separately with their families of origin.

I do hope we don't have a complete ban on all visitors. I'd hate to think of people on their own unable to go to family as usual.

I’m dreading January. So many simply won’t comply and will do what they want and cases will be awful. People wont think of the impact on the NHS, schools and others and will likely be the first to moan when they can’t get treated for something non Covid or schools close.

Not sure how to enforce, maybe larger fines and the person reporting gets part of it? Army help?

Are they going to obtain a warrant for every house they suspect of having more than 6 people in?

I can't even find the words for the poster above who is suggesting that people be paid to report others for having their family in their own home.

I get a feeling that, for Christmas Day there will be a huge relaxation of the rules - purely because so many will break them. So therefore it’s better to allow people to do what they want, rather than mass I compliance which will then lead to “well we did it at Christmas and it was fine”.

@RegularHumanBartender

I can't even find the words for the poster above who is suggesting that people be paid to report others for having their family in their own home.

This.

I think we'll go back to the rule of 6 over Christmas, simply because we can't police it and people are more likely to comply with that than nothing at all. They might push it to 8, or 10 but having a no mixing indoor rule, imo, is going to encourage people who are going to break the rules anyway to make it worth the fine by having a lot more people than maybe they will if it's set at 6.
The fines really are secondary to the main aim of this, and that's to keep transmission at a manageable level, people won't comply completely, we know that, but they may not go so all out if there's some leeway in the rules. And that in itself will help.

Also I don’t think it matters so much is they go for 6 or 66 - the big difference to usual social interactions here is that it’s family - so people are a bit more cautious.

No matter what the “rules” are - it’s already been decided that I won’t be going to DPs this year as it’s too much of a risk. Many people will feel the same I’d imagine.

Pinched this from another thread 😅

I'm really, really anxious about Christmas. My partner and I usually go for lunch at our respective parents' houses on the day, but spend the rest of the period together - it's a good compromise. His parents aren't doing Christmas this year, they've said it's not worth the risk.

My family are, but if there's a rule of 6 (which I think will be most probable) we were 6 already, adding him would be 7. Two of my family would allow this rule bend. Two would be against it.

I have anxiety which means I hate the thought of breaking the rules, therefore if we both went I probably wouldn't enjoy the day.

I'm quite clearly not leaving him on his own, so we will probably end up spending the day together and cooking at home. Not a problem really, it'll be our first Christmas Day spent together.

But my family will all be pissed off that I haven't gone. I will of course take gifts round before meal time when people are still in their own homes, but I'm not going for the meal if it means breaking rules.

@RegularHumanBartender

Are they going to obtain a warrant for every house they suspect of having more than 6 people in?

Well quite. It’s not a logical or sensible use of resources.

@IceCreamAndCandyfloss financial incentives for dobbing in your neighbours is a disgusting police state suggestion and I don’t want to live in that country

The police will probably be less bothered about houses with 7-8 people in having a quiet Christmas lunch together.

However, if you have a bigger group, are noisy, have lots of cars parked outside the property, or are blatantly breaking the rules in a similar manner, it will be a lot more likely that the police or a neighbour will notice and groups may be broken up, or possibly fines issued, assuming that extended family visitors are illegal at Christmas.

We don't know what position we'll be in and it's likely to vary across the UK due to tiers. A relative of mine lives in an area where compliance is especially poor, and householders have been fined for having visitors when it has been illegal to do so, as has been the case here for a few weeks.

What you have to remember is that gatherings increase risk and people can be infectious without symptoms. How would people feel if they gave the virus to an older relative who ended up seriously ill or even dying?

@Whenlifegivesyoulimoncello

I get a feeling that, for Christmas Day there will be a huge relaxation of the rules - purely because so many will break them. So therefore it’s better to allow people to do what they want, rather than mass I compliance which will then lead to “well we did it at Christmas and it was fine”.

If there is a 'mass relaxation' as you put it, I feel it would raise questions about whether what we've been doing all year was really necessary.

It's either a dangerous virus or it's not. We either need to avoid it to slow the spread or we don't.

But it can't possibly be as bad as they've been making out if we can even consider a relaxation just because it's Christmas.

How would we feel if we were asymptomatic and accidentally passed it to the older members of the family on Christmas Day and they then died?

If we can relax for Christmas, we can relax for good.

@IceCreamAndCandyfloss

I’m dreading January. So many simply won’t comply and will do what they want and cases will be awful. People wont think of the impact on the NHS, schools and others and will likely be the first to moan when they can’t get treated for something non Covid or schools close.

Not sure how to enforce, maybe larger fines and the person reporting gets part of it? Army help?

Bloody hell, like really???

@MoodieMare I agree I think the exact number becomes too much of a focus, when people’s potential for transmission to others isn’t all the same. For example, DH is working from home, I’m
on maternity, getting everything delivered, if we see family and then go home there’s not much chance of further spread. Someone who needs to travel on public transport to work every day there is. I think this is why people want to do more individual risk assessing about things like Christmas gatherings. But I also get the logic of a clear number rather than lots of varied rules, it’s been confusing enough in many ways.

@BarbaraofSeville I’d think if someone has an older or more vulnerable relative they’d consider that? Or maybe the older person is willing to take the risk, I know many are rather than live half lives isolated in their homes. There’s no one over mid 60s in my family so doesn’t feel like there’s that additional risk to be mindful of, other families will be different

It’s always been the case that covid rules ;and any rules to be honest) require majority compliance by choice with the police only able to pick up on a small number of rule breakers. The public today have if you look at the data we do have been relatively good at voluntary compliance at least in the last lockdown it remains to be seen red Christmas etc but I anticipate public polling will be key in working out what the public will accept red Christmas as much as the scientists. It should be remembered though all polling tend to show the public more pro restrictions and calling for harsher restrictions so I suspect a relatively restricted Christmas will be possible.

Christmas Day itself they'll look the other way and rely on people to use a bit of sense.

@IceCreamAndCandyfloss and tbf, we’re also then back to my original question - who’s investigating these reports from neighbours? How many police are there that why can go check all these houses (answer: there aren’t enough) and without a warrant they don’t have to be let in anyway. Are they getting warrants for thousands of houses in one day? Nope

@IceCreamAndCandyfloss

I’m dreading January. So many simply won’t comply and will do what they want and cases will be awful. People wont think of the impact on the NHS, schools and others and will likely be the first to moan when they can’t get treated for something non Covid or schools close.

Not sure how to enforce, maybe larger fines and the person reporting gets part of it? Army help?

Boxing Day and particularly New Years Eve parties and gathering will need policing.

Christmas Day people will stay among family and most people won't be gathering with extended families, although plenty will.

I would love the rules to be relaxed over Christmas but I don't understand how we would do this for Christmas but not events that are important to other cultures. Thinking back to Eid, Diwali coming up later this month etc. Surely we should have had exceptions then too if we are going to over Christmas

I will, because we have three kids. Me, DH, the three kids and my parents makes 7.

So if it's the rule of 6 yes I'd break it and no I wouldn't feel guilty in the slightest.

Police will not be bothered about quiet family Christmas lunches however many people there are round the table. A police car hasn’t been seen in our village for months. Doubt they will bother anyone over Christmas.

Not sure how to enforce, maybe larger fines and the person reporting gets part of it? Army help?

You want the army to enter people's homes? On Christmas Day?

And you want people to have a financial incentive to snitch about their neighbour's household guests?

This is the society you want to live in? I think Ceaucescu's Romania might have been more your style.