Christmas rule breaking and policing

[BuffaloCauliflower]

This isn’t a debate about what rules there should be or not be at Christmas, and whether or not people should or shouldn’t break them, but let’s assume that it’s likely we’ll be back to some form of ‘the rule of 6’ for Christmas, maybe not including children in the number, maybe it’ll be 8 instead of 6, who knows, but its unlikely to be the normal course of events.

In practice, many people will break these rules to at least some extent, and is there really any chance of it being policed anyway? The police literally won’t have the resources to go and check all the houses that may have too many people in them and it would be a waste of their time And resources anyway when I’m sure they’ll be needed more elsewhere. Perhaps if there’s a massive party somewhere it might be worth it. But ultimately there will be no policing of the rules so it’ll be up to each person/household what they choose to do anyway surely?

people who celebrate different religious occasions to Christmas will no doubt take their own risks like most will at Christmas.

Muslims were demonised by the media - and by several Conservative MPs - for allegedly not sticking to lockdown over Eid. The same MPs (and media) are now advocating for rules to be relaxed for Christmas. Double standards much?

@PhilCornwall1

I expect you will still want a hospital bed though when your children pass to your Dp’s though.

God are people still trotting out this bollocks?

Hmm, nice discussion.

Wouldn't surprise me one bit if they keep the rules as rights possible to maximise fines. Easy money for the government after all.

I saw a video on SM of a gym staff member surrounded by dozens of police as they were open after lockdown. She refused to say if she was the manager and was arrested. Can't remember what her fine was but every member of the gym that was there was going to get a £200 fine too. So government logic could well be give a small kickback to neighbours who report gatherings and fine everyone there x£200. Quids in.

@EleanorShell

I would love the rules to be relaxed over Christmas but I don't understand how we would do this for Christmas but not events that are important to other cultures. Thinking back to Eid, Diwali coming up later this month etc. Surely we should have had exceptions then too if we are going to over Christmas

No because this is England, a country where the official religion is Christianity.

I just refer you back to this from the recent memes thread... honestly, what police force is going to want to spend Christmas Day investigating crimes of families enjoying Christmas Day together? I think there will be a lot of disobedience.

I will be waiting to see who Dominic Cummings spends Christmas with!

@MoodieMare I get this two households thing as logic and it does make sense, but it definitely doesn’t allow for all family sizes. Are most Christmas gatherings only people from 2 households? Our normal Christmas mixes at least 5 households and I can’t imagine how we’d leave anyone out. We can’t be the only close, big family, though I appreciate probably bigger than many and I don’t think it makes sense to make rules based just around families like mine. Also

But also, say in that example that one adult child’s family goes to their parents but their siblings then go to their in laws, are there no siblings on the other side who also want to go to their parents? If we went to DH parents (which we never do we’re always with my family) they’re always with his sister, so again that’s 3 households mixing not 2. That’s surely not unusual?

@PickleWithEverything agreed. It’s a waste of time and resources. Christmas is unfortunately often busy with domestic violence reports and I know where I’d rather my local police went

A massive relaxation of the rules and the odd extra person will put us back in lockdown in February, so I don't think they'll happen. Those that are lucky to have Xmas and Boxing day off, are likely to see a different family both times if allowed so many will be mixing with a 8-10 over the two days which is far more than recent times.

We decided to keep it low key a long time ago, we're keeping it to the three of us, Mum isn't sure about mixing at Xmas but she'd come to us if we're all comfortable with it. Everyone else, we can easily meet for a walk or drop off prezzies on doorstep/post and get together over zoom.

@BuffaloCauliflower

Unfortunately no one size will fit all, it never can. Like I pointed out about a policy that 'turns a blind eye' on Christmas Day itself upthread. It's a good way to deal with it, but some people will fall foul of it regardless of how many exemptions there are.

Mixing two households (and that includes 'bubbles' doesn't it because your bubble is seen to be your household though technically not ) could therefore potentially mix 4 households. But then household 5 is left out....... Or mix 3 households then 2.....

The person making any "Christmas Rules" is not someone I envy in all honesty! As they stand, the whole set of 'rules' are complicated, full of exemptions for this and that and at best, confusing. I've confused myself with the whole bubbles and households thing!
I think they need to just be simple and straightforward, to a degree that will control spread but not so harsh they are then counterproductive, because people won't do it.

From a personal pov, we're forgoing the family get together this year, so any rules on how many people or households is a moot point for me, a fair few of us work in healthcare and retail, we've made that decision because of the way things stand with transmission and that we are all potentially higher risk because of our jobs, and could pass to each other and open up their workplace to it too.
That won't be applicable to some people will it though? So I wouldn't expect everyone to follow my reasoning on that and apply to their own situation.

I don't know what the answer is, but I do know that for some, it won't affect them at all, and for others it will affect them a great deal.

@MoodieMare yeh that’s exactly it. I do feel like the narrative is largely being pushed by those for whom it’s not a big deal, the ‘well it’s only one year’ or who have small families that can easily split their usual Christmas into two, and I get that for many people it’s not a big deal. When I say I don’t know who we’d leave out I literally don’t know, it would be impossible. We’ve had the same Christmas with pretty much the exact same people for the last 30+ years. We’re always in the same house, doing things the same way. We’ve followed the rules carefully and sensibly all year and don’t WANT to have to break any rules, but the thought of anyone being left out is actually heartbreaking and I feel like we’ll just have to risk it and take the fine if it comes to it. But I appreciate that sounds really selfish and I’d totally expect to be told I’m a dick for saying it. But in the event someone did die next year, of anything, and we hadn’t spent the last Christmas together, it would be devastating.

Not sure how to enforce, maybe larger fines and the person reporting gets part of it? Army help?

WTAF

@BonnieDundee

Not sure how to enforce, maybe larger fines and the person reporting gets part of it? Army help?

WTAF

Tell me about it. People are even more bonkers than the first lockdown.

We are either all in this together or not.

Weve not been in it together since the country found out the rules didn't apply to Cummings

@BonnieDundee

We are either all in this together or not.

Weve not been in it together since the country found out the rules didn't apply to Cummings

Heat hear

We are either all in this together or not.

We never have and never will!

@Whenlifegivesyoulimoncello

Also I don’t think it matters so much is they go for 6 or 66 - the big difference to usual social interactions here is that it’s family - so people are a bit more cautious.

No matter what the “rules” are - it’s already been decided that I won’t be going to DPs this year as it’s too much of a risk. Many people will feel the same I’d imagine.

I think that family interactions are the problem. Multi generations- kids at school/uni mixing with elderly residents and little social distancing in a cosy unventilated house. The data is showing that household mixing is the main transmission route

We are either all in this together or not

We are not.

As for the pp who suggested financial incentives for reporting neighbours and sending in the army ...... !!!!!!! How disgusting!! Disgraceful idea.

@BuffaloCauliflower

I do appreciate your stance, and sympathise, and have no interest in calling you a dick 😊
But I do think there's a responsibility to try and work out a way, a compromise that doesn't break whatever rules are in place, and therefore increase transmission, which yes unfortunately may mean some family Christmases are not the same, but also not completely hopeless.

And as for all in it together, well maybe people may be more inclined to think that and take on the spirit of it if those dictating the rules also did so. If the likes of Cummings had been punished in line with the legislation at the time, if MPs were seen to give up their pay rises and claiming expenses for everything in sight and that money redirected to the NHS. If the NHS had been funded and managed correctly from the start so that we weren't in this situation of having to shut other healthcare services so it can cope with Covid. If companies that should be paying tax said you know what, the country needs this money right now, we'll do the right thing instead of hiding behind loopholes.
Instead we as a society are being exhorted to look after the NHS, to change everything about our lives, to be socially responsible while those telling us to carry on regardless. It's no wonder there's a kick back really.
But that said, we do have to work with what we've got right now don't we? We can't turn back the clock or produce a magical solution. The kick back will solve nothing.

It would be reasonable to say that over the Christmas period you can mix with family members not in your household, but not friends. So that would allow for most people having their usual family Christmas, but avoid big NYE parties.

I'm starting to feel like were the only family on earth where this doesnt effect anything, we never have people over or go out on xmas day... its litrally the one day of the year to lounge around as a nuclear family in your own home and enjoy your own little family.

I get thats not the same for say the elderly (whose children have grow and/or partners have died) or non family based people (single and child free) but all single person household can join one other household as a support bubble so they dont have to be alone on xmas but what ruins that is then people that dont need it trying to bend the rules to find loopholes in rules to protect the vunerable just so they can invite 4 different family household to theirs for a party.

1 day playing with their kids at home with a visit from their elderly widowed mother for xmas dinner as a support bubble etc... could be lovely instead of hosting their standard 22 people from 6 house and wont kill anyone but people act like its the ultimate sacrafice to not cram as many people as possible into their home.

and howcome it has to be that specific day? like xmas day is the only day you can ever see family? just hold off a big family gathering until its safe (hell have 'xmas' in june next year if its safe etc... but that logic thought must be crazy it obviously has to be right now).

Maybe they will give us all a QR code and everyone coming to the house has to scan it. Obviously won’t work as oldsters don’t have smartphones.

If they go for the rule I’d six and includes kids it’s a tough ask for many. As an example I have two friends who are sisters. Both divorced - one has two kids the other three. So that’s 7 without including their mum who is widowed, that would be eight.

I do get that it’s “just one day” - but it’s another “just one day” on top of so many that have already been abandoned - weddings, birthdays, difficult time’s etc.

I will be following the rules - it’s fine for me. But I do see where people are just going to think - it’s only one more and we can’t leave x on their own.

@mam0918 if it doesn’t affect you at all then great. I’m glad some people aren’t affected by these rules. I guess you’re lucky this year that you don’t have wider family you give a shit about spending time with on Christmas. I’m really glad I do.

But clearly as it doesn’t affect you, you can’t understand at all why it does really affect some of us can you? You’re losing nothing yet think it’s reasonable to preach to those of us who will lose out. It’s such a shitty unempathetic attitude.

@mam0918 And why do people keep throwing out this ‘why is it it the only day you can see family’ thing, where have I said it’s the only easy we’d see people? It not at all the only day we see family, we see them all the time. That makes it worse, we’re genuinely close and want to be together. I get that Christmas is some sort of horrendous burden to some people they’re desperate to get out of but it’s not to us all.

@RegularHumanBartender

I can't even find the words for the poster above who is suggesting that people be paid to report others for having their family in their own home.

I agree. Are we in Nazi Germany?