Ways to make schools safer without closing them

[noblegiraffe]

Because I am so bored of the misrepresentation and lies going on on this site by people who shout down anyone who raises concerns about the current situation in schools as 'wanting schools to close indefinitely'. The people lacking in imagination who seem to insist that either things carry on as they are (with hundreds of thousands of kids not in school due to the spread in infection), or that schools close and there's nothing in between that can possibly be done to make things safer.

So here's my list, mostly copied from another thread:

We could start with an effective test and trace system, which we were told was essential for the safe re-opening of schools, but we opened without.

We could move onto making sure that all classrooms have windows. And then that those windows open. A national WEAR A VEST campaign to stop parents and kid complaining that it's cold. Germany have just invested a large amount of money in improving ventilation in schools, the UK should follow them.

Masks. Why do the government keep insisting they're not needed in corridors (from the comfort of a socially distanced parliament) and that it's impossible to use them in classrooms when the rest of the world seem to manage? What lessons can we learn from the international experience?

Marquees/covers on the playgrounds so that kids aren't inside for wet break. I know that wet break caused a whole year group to be sent home in a local school as it was uncontrolled indoor close contact.

For it to be mandatory (not simply 'where possible') that classrooms are arranged so that teachers are 2m from the kids when teaching. If smaller class sizes are needed to facilitate this, then solutions must be found even if the government needs to pay money for bigger spaces.

Parents to be supported/sanctioned to avoid kids being sent into school with symptoms or when they're supposed to be isolating.

The government to update its list of symptoms for children requiring a test to include the main ones that children experience, instead of the adult symptoms which they mainly don't.

Regular testing in schools, particularly when there are outbreaks, to enable more effective isolation.

Vulnerable kids to be allowed the option of staying at home. Schooling could be provided by Oak Academy (why spend millions on it and not use it?) and the army of 'catch-up tutors' to provide feedback on work (or ECV teachers also permitted to stay at home)

Any other suggestions?

I think it's worth reminding ourselves why school is compulsory in the first place

It’s not compulsory.

I’m disappointed, not. There’s a whole thread of ideas about how to try and keep schools open - thought you’d be more enthusiastic about it!

twitter.com/maryboustedneu/status/1320423447546253316?s=21

The NEU have the same idea noble...

Hah, maybe Dr Bousted is a secret MNetter!!

Turns out there’s a group of Dutch parents who are taking their government to court. Sounds like they are having similar problems to here:

“ The dissemination of misinformation about children and COVID-19 must cease. The RIVM website and other government publications contain multiple assertions that minors are supposedly hardly contagious, they would barely be susceptible to serious health risks if infected, and that schools should not be considered as epidemic hotspots. There assertions lack any scientific foundation.
Since children should be considered equally susceptible for infection as well as equally likely to be contagious, the 1.5m distance rule should be applied to them. This should at least without any doubt apply to teenagers. In situations where maintaining sufficient distance is not feasible, the wearing of face masks throughout the school would be a sufficient additional measure; otherwise, schools should resort to providing distance education until virus circulation has dropped to sufficiently low levels (see point 2).
Until we have reached the point where schools can be considered safe, it is unreasonable to prosecute parents who opt for homeschooling their children. Mandatory school attendance should be suspended until schools are safe (as stated under point 2) and virus circulation will have dropped below the signal value of 7 infections per day per 100,000 inhabitants.”

veiligonderwijs.org/articles/background?lang=en

Interesting noble I'd love to hear from any legal minds about whether the same is possible here.

I keep thinking there must be some conflict in law here. As parents we have a duty to keep our children as safe as we can, and not send them knowingly into danger. In some places now, particularly for children with vulnerabilities, surely what the government is expecting goes against our parental responsibility in law?

@IloveJKRowling
And surely it’s going against the fact that employers have a legal duty to their employees in terms of health and safety?

@Glitterynails yes absolutely. I do not understand why the unions are not doing more about ECV teachers in particular working in unsafe schools.

We wouldn't be expected to send our children into a school where one wing was on fire with exhortations that their classroom was down the other end of the building and the children from that classroom who are sitting right next to the fire have been sent home. And then bullied that we're damaging their mental health if we keep them off.

Wasn't there originally some 'traffic light' system saying schools should be closed over 50 per 100k? I don't want schools closed (I'd be in favour of rapid and repeat saliva testing so they can identify and stop outbreaks including asymptomatic cases). I definitely remember something about that back in June/July time when they were getting some kids back to school.

The rates just keep going up around me - it's definitely in exponential growth territory - well over 100 per 100k everywhere and I don't even really trust the numbers given how hard it is to test and how narrow the testing criteria.

How do schools ventilate rooms when winter comes and the temperatures outdoors drop below freezing. It’s going to be impossible to keep inside at a steady temperature. Genuinely interested in how the government think this will be possible
Children are already wearing layers in class to stay comfortable but it’s still going to get much colder in the months to come

@Tulipsinmyvase
I’ve been wondering about this too. Aren’t there minimum temperatures for classrooms? It’s going to be horrible. You can choose ventilation to reduce viral load OR warmth.

We've had kids wearing coats for weeks in classrooms. It's not even very cold yet.

I’m pregnant and my risk assessment says I need to keep windows and doors open. Going to be interesting when parents start complaining that their children are cold. The children have already been wearing coats, fleece and warm boots!

The minimum legal temperature is 16°. It's nowhere near as warm as that in most classrooms in my school already.

I am told that our local authority said the "occasional window opening" was sufficient for ventilation. And that ventilation must be balanced against heating / comfort / cost.
With that plus no masks allowed - it really is starting to look like they WANT all pupils infected, and that teachers will just be collateral. Who cares if a few old teachers die? To misquote....

@Danglingmod

The minimum legal temperature is 16°. It's nowhere near as warm as that in most classrooms in my school already.

Schools aren't legally subject to the minimum working temperature.

What's that, something that would be illegal in other workplaces is fine in schools? How surprising.

This states that the HSE regulations do apply to schools neu.org.uk/advice/cold-weather-and-classroom-temperature-england

[quote Glitterynails]This states that the HSE regulations do apply to schools neu.org.uk/advice/cold-weather-and-classroom-temperature-england[/quote]
If you scroll down to paragraph 2, you can see that this was only until 2012. The unions position is not a legal requirement.

Well I am happier with a cold but well ventilated classroom!

Me too @Glitterynails .

Remember the schools tier system that was discussed? What happened to that?

News today is worrying and it still feels like we're doing nothing about it.

Covid-19: Nearly 100,000 catching virus every day - study www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54723962

The man next door had coronavirus badly in March. He is still getting regular home checks. I've just seen 3 healthcare workers dressed in visors, plastic aprons and these clear face masks go in to the house.

Anyway - perhaps something like this is what is required in schools too.

@noblegiraffe

Yes. That's the point. I disagree with your suggestions!

No, you said But I just don't know what would be a suitable suggestion that you would be happy with!

After I wrote a whole load of them.

It’s there in black and white.

So, in essence, you are only happy with the suggestions in your original post.

Nobody is allowed to disagree with these suggestions and other suggestions aren't worthy.

So this thread wasn't made for discussion but just validation of your ideas?

Thanks for bumping my thread,emmag! Hopefully more people will now read the excellent suggestions in it and understand that closing schools is not the only option available when it comes to concern about transmission and infection rates.

However, I fear it is becoming too late to implement the other options without some sort of circuit break to bring down infection levels in badly affected schools.

[quote headstrong27]@noblegiraffe how is it negative to ask how things would work in reality as opposed to theory? I call it pragmatic. Schools I know of are already doing many of the good suggestions on this thread. [/quote]
@noblegiraffe

Many posters already realise that closing schools is not the only option.

Headstrong's quote above says she knows of schools already doing many of the suggestions on this thread.

This is a supportive quote and yet you still argued with this poster.

But some schools are doing some of these things.

Some schools can't practically do some of the other suggestions in a short space of time.

The question should surely be how do you get schoos who are not implementing the things they can do, to do so?

*Schools

@noblegiraffe

Add 'extra sinks' to the list of ideas. Thanks, headstrong

And extra toilets, so that bubbles don't need to share them.

Nobody is allowed to disagree with these suggestions and other suggestions aren't worthy.

Above is my response to her comment about what her school does, thanking her for her suggestion and adding it to the list.

The question should surely be how do you get schoos who are not implementing the things they can do, to do so?

The question is why isn’t the government funding things that will help prevent the transmission of covid in schools.

I’m in Scotland. Our schools are freezing because the windows are never shut. Everyone is told to wear a mask constantly unless they are sat at a desk.

I would honestly shut high schools, colleges and universities and do online classes. Keep primary’s open.