Ways to make schools safer without closing them

[noblegiraffe]

Because I am so bored of the misrepresentation and lies going on on this site by people who shout down anyone who raises concerns about the current situation in schools as 'wanting schools to close indefinitely'. The people lacking in imagination who seem to insist that either things carry on as they are (with hundreds of thousands of kids not in school due to the spread in infection), or that schools close and there's nothing in between that can possibly be done to make things safer.

So here's my list, mostly copied from another thread:

We could start with an effective test and trace system, which we were told was essential for the safe re-opening of schools, but we opened without.

We could move onto making sure that all classrooms have windows. And then that those windows open. A national WEAR A VEST campaign to stop parents and kid complaining that it's cold. Germany have just invested a large amount of money in improving ventilation in schools, the UK should follow them.

Masks. Why do the government keep insisting they're not needed in corridors (from the comfort of a socially distanced parliament) and that it's impossible to use them in classrooms when the rest of the world seem to manage? What lessons can we learn from the international experience?

Marquees/covers on the playgrounds so that kids aren't inside for wet break. I know that wet break caused a whole year group to be sent home in a local school as it was uncontrolled indoor close contact.

For it to be mandatory (not simply 'where possible') that classrooms are arranged so that teachers are 2m from the kids when teaching. If smaller class sizes are needed to facilitate this, then solutions must be found even if the government needs to pay money for bigger spaces.

Parents to be supported/sanctioned to avoid kids being sent into school with symptoms or when they're supposed to be isolating.

The government to update its list of symptoms for children requiring a test to include the main ones that children experience, instead of the adult symptoms which they mainly don't.

Regular testing in schools, particularly when there are outbreaks, to enable more effective isolation.

Vulnerable kids to be allowed the option of staying at home. Schooling could be provided by Oak Academy (why spend millions on it and not use it?) and the army of 'catch-up tutors' to provide feedback on work (or ECV teachers also permitted to stay at home)

Any other suggestions?

I'm not sure why a kid you know is relevant to my school?

Completely separate guidance for each age range would be a start.

Would still be a nightmare for primaries though, as it’s possible for a Y6 teacher to avoid directly touching a child but utterly impossible in Y2 or below. Ditto SEND settings.

Surely you accept if lots of people (not 1 child) were bursting bubbles & breaking rules this would be reflected in cases/illness? I mean generally.

I said not necessarily and provided an example of rule breaking that didn’t lead to positive tests or burst bubbles.

Your response wasn't "not necessarily", it was no

So number of cases or lack of children having to self isolate doesn't provide any indication?
No.

which is it then?

Been off thread and obviously missed rather a lot, but someone asked re drop down day and it’s basically a day off the timetable. Some schools near us use them to deliver PSHE curriculum as they don’t have it timetabled.

Don’t know if anyone has already posted this

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54673558

I still think blended learning is the best way to go.
Let parents keep kids home if they can do home learning.

I think blended learning has a place particularly for the older kids.

Completely agree with your list noble and I'd add there needs to be whole school testing and contact tracing to establish number of asymptomatic cases. We cannot know how big the problem is until we have this data. It's highly dodgy that it isn't being collected. Some schools at least should be having whole school testing as some private schools have done.

There needs to be some consideration of viral load of exposure (which will be increasing as cases increase) - which will indeed be different for teachers of different age groups. This is particularly important for any vulnerable teachers.

Viral load is directly linked to severity of disease and outcome.

Any risk assessment should consider the likelihood of exposure to the hazard and the severity of the harm it will cause. Since the latter is different for different groups and at different viral loads there should be some attempt to obtain data to enable a proper exposure and risk assessment.

The government has completely failed on all of this (as for so much).

And yes, fund schools to enable more staff, social distancing etc. I'd be completely in favour of just giving all state schools extra money and allowing the headteachers and their teams to figure out where best it is spent to reduce risk for each school, as it will be different for each school. They should remove the ban on using community buildings (especially those offered for free).

And masks, for at least secondary but I'd be in favour of KS2 as well in lessons. Especially in the highest risk areas (although the whole of the UK is heading in this direction so we might as well start now everywhere).

We cannot know how big the problem is until we have this data

Yes, it was pretty eye-opening when it happened in universities.

@baller20 - are case rates going up generally in your local community, or remaining stable/going down? Because I do not think you can be so very confident about the reality in your children’s school(s) if cases in the community generally are rising. As an example in the community where I live, this is an example of the psychology that is going on amongst those who have sent their covid positive children into school: their child didn’t really have the classic symptoms, except possibly a mild temperature that was gone within a few hours, or just had a headache that isn’t even on the official list, and they regretted getting them tested when they were certain it wasn’t covid, plus they knew the wait for the result was quite long atm, so decided to send their child back into school... Then there’s the children going into school without being tested because parents think a chesty cough is not a covid cough; or because they are feeling unwell with sore throats, headaches and mildly upset stomachs but these don’t count as covid symptoms (even though common in young people with covid). This all seems very reasonable until the parents get more classic symptoms. Then there are the children whose parents started out as very vigilant, but the 2nd or 3rd time their children come down with a bit of a temperature, they really don’t want to have to isolate again because it’s been a waste of their time before, so probably is now, and their child has missed too much school already - and they can’t afford to isolate again, either, or they’ll lose their job. The simple fact is, we just don’t know exactly how much covid is spreading in schools, or being brought into schools, or being taken home to families. We do know, however, that case rates are mostly going up everywhere.

They have gone up by a very low amount & were low to start with. I haven't said things won't be different come winter proper & a more robust testing system is needed for the country. I've just referenced my experiences so far.

Whether you have an outbreak in a school is down to luck at the moment. Most people don't pass it on to anyone. But some people pass it on to LOTS. If you have a super spreader in a school - well with no masks or social distancing, it's going to spread. Even without there being a super spreader, the stuffy over crowded nature of most classrooms means it is more likely to be transmitted - but the other children could well be asymptomatic, or not have the classic adult symptoms, so noone notices, and noone clicks when Granny gets ill. Or someone's uncle. Because they weren't in school and it was a few weeks ago that there was a case in school..

@baller20

Well, you weren’t..the OP asked for suggestions...

Oh I misunderstood, we can only add to the OPs list & not discuss any of their suggestions.

You seem a little agitated.

Such classic passive aggressive nastiness.

Whether you have an outbreak in a school is down to luck at the moment.

So the new sinks, the ventilation, the masks in some areas, the strict bubbles, the staggered times, the no parents on site have no impact. Ok then

What new sinks? No funding
What ventilation? Windows "fixed" shut due to knackered frames and no funding.
No masks in classrooms where there is the most exposure
Teachers cross bubbles - in secondary, most teachers teach most year groups.
Parents still gossip in clusters at the gates....

eh? these are the measures my dc's school have implemented. Except masks in classrooms, I didn't say they had done that.

I already mentioned this upthread?

Wouldn't it have been great if the government had mandated all of those mitigations and funded them?

When have I said contrary?

So will the measures my school has implemented have an impact or is it still just luck?

@baller20

When have I said contrary?

So will the measures my school has implemented have an impact or is it still just luck?

Well, it’s partly luck that they are able to do what they have done... But even with all this, with high community infection it’ll get into your school.

It did get in, pre school holidays. Again I send this upthread.

Well, it’s partly luck that they are able to do what they have done...

So the luck they used to implement certain measures will that have any impact?

Why are you trying to pick an argument? I didn't say you did.
Is it primary or secondary you are talking about? If secondary the bubbles mean nothing as teachers cross bubbles routinely. If primary, do the PPA cover staff cross bubbles.
Depends on the amount of ventilation and size of the classrooms in the absence of masks. And that is luck on what buildings you have. Again does each bubble have their own loos? My kids school does not, and neither does the school I teach in. In fact the ladies loos have zero ventilation and a tiny room.
So yes luck on facilities, luck on whether you get an asymptomatic super spreader crossing bubbles.
The things that really matter - masks, space, crowding, - are the things that have been forbidden from being altered by the DfE. Heads have had their hands tied.
Hand washing only stops a minority of transmission. It's the air that's the problem.

@SaltyAndFresh have you got anything of note to add? Salty by name, salty by nature I guess.

I'm not sure what the purpose of this thread is? Is it blanket agreement. Even though think I agreed with most things. Is it because my dcs school have implemented certain measures that are in the OP? Apparently that's still a problem. Is it because i'm not quivering in fear. I genuinely don't know what some of you want. Tbh I don't care & I'll let you crack on.

Why are you trying to pick an argument?

Wow, fuck knows what thread your posting on.

I'm not engaging anymore with such nastiness. I was replying in good faith.