Do we need a reality check about covid?

[TheSilence]

I’m so quiet about this in real life, and bite my tongue but I’m so sick of hearing certain things and it’s making me despair of the human race.

I am no scientist, nor do I especially understand research/data or statistics.

But in a nutshell, I am sick of people minimising this virus. I’ve seen and heard it for 7 months now and am most frustrated by these kinds of comments:

“It’s just flu but they’ve renamed it”
“Flu has a higher death rate”
“For 99% of people it’s just like having the common cold”
“All nurses ever do is film tik Tok videos”
“Long covid doesn’t exist”
“Masks cause severe neurological damage”!

This is just a few because I don’t want to rant too much, I haven’t even covered the vast amount of conspiracy theories I’ve read.

From my understanding, all of those statements I’ve said are wrong, but I’m aware that my understanding is wrong.
I know some people might be reading this thinking I’ve got it back to front and that people are over estimating this virus, but that hasn’t been my experience at all.

Bottom line is, the single most important thing about covid that makes it a severe threat is that it’s brand new. The people who understand these things barely understand this. When going into a battle or war, knowing and understanding your enemy gives you a huge advantage. It’s the same with this, and tbh I can’t get my head around the statements people make with such certainty, such as “I KNOW for a fact if I or my family get it we’ll definitely be fine” or “Long covid is DEFINITELY the same as any post viral syndrome”. How can these people be so ridiculously sure when scientists aren’t?

I hate the arrogance and huge egos of people in this country and other western countries.

And yes I’m struggling with severe mental health issues that I can’t get proper help for because of covid. As I know I sound very ranty and possibly angry.

I’m just saying - please take this seriously.

@Pluckedpencil

I think we could be more proportional in our response to covid if people took it seriously. The truth is the draconian measures are being put in place because people don't want to wear masks and keep their distance. That's all you need to do, but people just can't seem to manage it in the UK without a lockdown.

I don't agree with this at all. Mask compliance is really high where I live (tier 3 area). I'd feel like a leper if I walked into a supermarket without one (I don't, btw!)

If you watch tv it's not uncommon to see people walking round the high street OUTDOORS with masks on, though that's not ever been mandated.

Compliance IS generally very good, the reason the virus is spreading is because we live in a densely-populated country of 67m people, and that's what always happens with viruses when life is being lived. It's NOT anyone's "fault".

As to the OP, I don't find any of those quotes particularly offensive. They may not or may not be correct but they're just words. In reality millions of healthy people have sacrificed personal freedoms, jobs & livelihoods, and mental health for over 7 months now, with no end in sight.
In my opinion, people are well entitled and RIGHT to question this the longer it goes on.

@TheClaws

Agreed, OP. There is also a deep vein of anti-science commentary embedded in these posts, and I find this especially disturbing.

Yes, this is actually one thing that upsets me the most. I shouldn’t do it, but I got into a Twitter debate with someone who insisted covid is less harmful than the common cold and that he hopes he gets it soon because he knows for a fact he’ll be fine. He was mocking scientists, saying they know nothing or are all paid off by the government to keep the lies going. He said he doesn’t trust any doctors or healthcare staff because they lack common sense. And he had lots of people liking his tweets!!

It just really really upsets me. I grew up thinking and believing that science should be respected. Not blindly worshipped - but that it’s ok to accept that some people are more highly trained than we are and that it’s ok to acknowledge an expert.

I posted another thread on the way COVID19 has changed society so much and we cannot run on these emergency measures forever because, of course, other issues are still running parallel to COVID.

Aside from that, I don't like the strain of fascism it has brought to the British mentality. Someone has broken the rule of 6 with one extra person? Report. Housing officer seen working out at the gym? Report. Someone not wearing a mask? Challenge them aggressively.

Track and Trace is a good idea, in principle, insofar as containing the virus is concerned but doesn't it worry some people that this information could easily be abused - not only by hackers, but possibly by the authorities themselves.

People generally like rules in this situation. It makes them feel safe. Most people therefore will comply readily but the rules are inconsistent, illogical and keep changing and yet too many are not noticing or questioning the gaslighting going on and it all feels very creepy and Orwellian

I can see some elements of thinking styles such as black and white thinking and catastrophising in the OP and wonder if possibly something like CBT might be helpful

Totally disagree OP. I think the world has collectively lost its mind. I also think those who give the advice (scientists) are so invested in their beliefs and research that they are holding their ground and attempting to save face when it has become very clear that Covid’s average victim is 82. The average life expectancy in this country is 81. A year of our lives has been wasted due to a virus that the vast majority won’t get and, if they do, they’ll not only survive but barely notice.

@TrustTheGeneGenie

I'd rather be in Sweden with its damaged economy but still be free to do as I please ,than in Britain with its damaged economy where it is illegal to have my own mother in the house I fucking own.

Ok, but also countries are not directly comparable. Sweden has a population 55.6 million fewer people than the U.K., it is also 85% larger as a land mass. (Yes, some large areas in the north are uninhabited, but this point still stands.) Therefore spread will be different. Sweden’s health system is also not free on point of entry and you’ll be paying more tax (which I see as a positive, but many don’t). Similarly to how Covid spreading through countries with high population and low land mass with the highest poverty rates and least medical care will spread worst. There are lots of other factors, so it’s isn’t as black and white as that, but it makes them less immediately comparable. Equally, if your mother is elderly and it classes as a wellbeing check, it’s not an issue in the U.K.

It is a lottery, children who do get complications get serious ones. Scary for mums like me who spent the first year of ds life in and out of hospitals being fobbed off by crap GPs, holding him through painful scans and staying beside him as we were hospitalised again by A&E because low level medical staff wouldn’t read a specialists blooming letter etc. It’s not highly likely, but if it did affect his already damaged kidneys then that could be very serious. I already nearly lost him once and there’s little research as yet on children with specific health conditions, so tricky to know if he’d breeze through or not.

The government should have a better test and trace. They told us to rely on that, it was their basis for sending our children to school and it’s ridiculous that England don’t have one. I’m now in Wales and less affected by the U.K. government, but my family and long term close friends are in England and they’re really struggling. We lost a family member and never got to say goodbye or go to their funeral. The funeral was not live streamed so we couldn’t be involved. Do I blame the general public? No. I blame the government. I didn’t vote them in, I’ve never had trust in them and they’ve done a good job of proving how inept Johnson and the gang are at leading the country. I do wish the general public would stop spreading huge amounts of misinformation though, I don’t mind an accidental comment that’s wrong, but the number of people spouting rubbish about masks killing people and so on is just wrong. It also shows a disturbing lack of questioning where questions are needed (as brexit did). For example, not questioning a source and thinking about information you already have eg. Surgeons and builders already wear masks among other workers - they do not die from mask related illness. Or why would a party who’s main focus in economics insist on lockdown if it wasn’t seen as necessary when it negatively affects economics?

Anyway, the media aren’t helping as they publish conflicting stories and now isn’t the time. I worked in the media but when there’s low compliance and high levels of covid, it isn’t the time to publish stories suggesting covid parties will come in (with a single line at the end saying ‘this really isn’t reccomended’). Also unless MPs can stick to the rules, they cannot expect others to. What I’d like to see is MPs setting a good example, as its one role where an example is supposed to be set, and Johnson admitting outsourcing was shit, he’s misplaced 1bn into the pockets of friends, put our lives at risk, told us to trust something that underperforms and not seen fit to sack MPs not following rules or answer important questions from any opposing party. On top of this, his party feels unable to feed school children over the holidays though their own meals are subsidised and they have a missing 1bn from moonshot. Wales has extended their plan until Easter hols 2021, despite having far less money (mainly from U.K. government) to do so. The Tories have decided that they can’t stretch to that, despite being the reason many have fallen below the poverty line as it is.

So yes, I think people need to take Covid seriously, but I blame the government for all of this and more.

@Bluntness100

I don’t understand why folks take such issue with it being compared to flu. Flu is actually very deadly and has a ten percent death rate when unvaccinated. It is way more fatal than Covid. People seem to think thr flu is some benign thing, it’s not, that’s why they vaccinate.

And the biggest symptom of Covid is no symptom, and yes for the vast majority of folks it will be mild. But for a small percentage it will be serious, uo to fatal or may have lasting impacts.

In addition the doctors are clearly having some success in treating it.

It is important to get it right, but that’s neither minimising or exaggerating.

Flu is unlike covid in that it’s R rate, the natural rate of reproduction is much lower than that of COVID - by a significant margin. So it spreads much less easily.

COVID being symptomless in many also makes it harder to manage because people have no idea they’re carrying it, so carry on as normal and infect many more that way. At least with flu you can’t really get out of bed so you’re not out spreading it far and wide without knowing it.

@Billie18

“It’s just flu but they’ve renamed it”

Coronavirus and inflenza viruses are different but they share many symptoms and pose a danger to the same demographic (elderly and/or those with multiple health problems.

“Flu has a higher death rate”

Flu certainly can have a very high death rate. In the 2014/2015 flu season 28,189 deaths in the UK were attributed to flu.

“For 99% of people it’s just like having the common cold”

There are indications that upto 80% of people infected with coronavirus will have no symptoms. ie they will not even know they have it (unlike a cold). Over 99% of the population are not at serious risk from coronavirus and if they do have symptoms they are likely to be mild and similar to cold symptoms.

“All nurses ever do is film tik Tok videos”

Really?

“Long covid doesn’t exist”

No doubt some people suffer from post viral fatigue. Not many though.

“Masks cause severe neurological damage”

There is zero scientific evidence that general public mask wearing can inhibit virus spread.

I’ve read a bit about covid, and I thought some doctors were saying it’s more of an inflammatory or blood vessel disease than it is a respiratory one, and that it works in a different way to colds and flus, but I don’t know, maybe I’m wrong then.

And I agree, flu can be incredibly dangerous and cause huge fatalities. But we have some protection via a vaccine, and med staff have been treating flu for several years so know more about it.

The fact that lots of people have no symptoms isn’t that reassuring to me, I read something a while ago that said even in asymptotic people, lung damage has shown up in scans after being infected. It’s actually the no symptoms thing which freaks me out a lot about this virus. It feels so insidious. Again, I’m probably completely wrong to worry about that.

Yeah I see the TikTok comment a lot.

Are you totally sure that long covid is just the same as any post viral fatigue? Because I don’t think doctors and scientists are.

I thought that there were several studies showing countries which implemented mask wearing had done better? Also to me it’s basic science that something over the face will provide a barrier when water droplets come out which contain a virus.

@BiBabbles

Some of that is misinformation - some willful and some not, some of that (particularly the nurse remark) is just being rude, and yes, some are conspiracy theories.

“Long covid is DEFINITELY the same as any post viral syndrome”. How can these people be so ridiculously sure when scientists aren’t?

For months, in research articles coming out, Long COVID was being discussed as or a variant of post viral syndrome (much as there are several conditions that are considered variants of it). Many forms of media either ignored or barely mentioned that. Some people with conditions linked to post-viral syndrome pushed to have that reframed, if only to give those dealing with Long COVID further resources. This isn't people not taking Long COVID seriously, it is people wanting post-viral syndrome to be more widely recognized and taken more seriously.

Now, Long COVID is more broken up into four: post-intensive-care syndrome from the treatment, permanent organ damage to the lungs and heart which can be caused by illness, the treatment, and/or a post-viral reaction, post-viral (fatigue) syndrome, and those who experience continuing symptoms. All of these can happen with other viruses. SARS-Cov-2 is new, but it isn't alien. Other people have gone through similar.

Many people with Long COVID have gotten support through other chronic illness groups and support networks. While each person's experience will be different, and that's obviously important to recognize, I don't think there is anything wrong with bringing them into the community. They don't need to go through having their lives being turned upside down alone - some have years of experience and willing to be a supportive distanced shoulder. All those minimizing and conspiracy remarks - yeah, many chronically ill and disabled people have been getting those for a while.

Even with the new breakdown of Long COVID, I find people who think calling it a post-viral syndrome (whether by the virus or by treatment) is dismissive are dismissing the seriousness of other conditions and what those who live with them go through with lack of knowledge and consideration that exists even when they've been recognized for years.

Thank you for this reply, I found it very informative and interesting

Op you talk about respecting science/experts, proportion etc

Then you focus on some (maybe) dr on the internet months ago.

he wasn’t sure if the virus could be ‘bi-phasal’ which has really stuck with me.

Ignoring, what we know, that most people recover, many dont have symptoms.

So yes, yabu.

Its an incredibly difficult balance to get right and once we started on the back foot (by not stopping/quarantining people coming into the country right from the start) I'm not sure how you acheive it.

I know the government has made an enormous number of mistakes but honestly I really don't think there is any obvious answer. So many european countries are facing similar issues.
I don't minimise covid - I know someone in their 40s who died from it leaving 2 teenagere without a da. He was fit and healthy, and his only underlying condition was asthma.
But 18 months ago society was worried about mental health, social isolation (especially of older people living alone), children spending too long on screens and missing skills from face to face interaction...now thos problems are the answers to combatting covid.

Everybody locking down probably would go a long way to eliminate covid. BUt the problem is the country needs an enormous amount of people to go to work to function at a very basic level.
Unless there is (financial) provison for people, a lot will take their own risks for their own families survival. A lot won't be able to afford to take 6 days off work to wait for a test result that might well be negative. All the shouting, and calling them selfish idiots won't put a roof over their head or pay their bills.

@Pixxie7

Totally agree but I don’t know what the answer is, we can’t keep locked up forever. A lot of people are on their knees trying to keep a roof above their heads and food on their tables. So unless the government starts getting thinking outside the box ie provide everyone with a basic income or suspending mortgage and rent payments we have to keep going the best we can I know this is radical and probably unfair but I do think the vulnerable should be financially compensated to allow them to shield if they want to.

I actually do agree with this, the handling of this pandemic in the UK has been....well a shambles let’s be honest!

You’re right that lockdowns are causing so much damage, I just don’t know what else is the answer now that the government and some of the public have let it go out of control again.

The vulnerable shielding idea I keep seeing disputed because ultimately we are all part of the community and it’s just not that easy to keep the virus out of the shielding places.

@GabriellaMontez

Op you talk about respecting science/experts, proportion etc

Then you focus on some (maybe) dr on the internet months ago.

he wasn’t sure if the virus could be ‘bi-phasal’ which has really stuck with me.

Ignoring, what we know, that most people recover, many dont have symptoms.

So yes, yabu.

You’re right. Please ignore that comment because I don’t have the evidence to back it up and I’m probably wrong anyway and misremembering. However, I didn’t state it as fact, just said that I remembered reading it and it has stuck with me personally.

@Orangeblossom7777

I can see some elements of thinking styles such as black and white thinking and catastrophising in the OP and wonder if possibly something like CBT might be helpful

That’s really not true. I live with someone who has a personality disorder, as well as having worked with people with them and have other friends and family with them - and the OP ain’t got it. Sorry, but listening to scientists and accepting restrictions for a short part of your life do NOT represent a need for CBT, it demonstrates ability to empathise and understand need for change (eg, not black and white thinking). It’s actually quite offensive for you to say that.

Also DBT is often more effective at reframing thoughts/black and white thinking as it teaches coping mechanisms and interpersonal skills alongside just thoughts, which can create the emotional resilience to allow thought challenging. However, I do think learning resilience would be a great help for many in the pandemic, especially those who complain about loss of liberty and could do with the help in understanding how to reframe that change as being for a short time. Equally, therapy is hard enough to get in normal times and it’s a joke to suggest someone would get referred without being pretty seriously affected.

[quote monkeytennis97]@TheSilence absolutely a Partridge reference... currently listening to From The Oasthouse podcast [/quote]
I didn’t know these existed!!! Will have a listen. Partridge wisdom is much needed at this time!

Scaremongering OP, it really is tiresome. maybe try yoga, or meditation or a daily walk it might help with your sense of fabricated gloom and doom.

Funny enough I have several 'doctor friends' and none of them are particularity concerned about Covid. They were in March but are no longer. They take many of the prevention methods such as social distancing, hand washing socialising with a big pinch of salt many don't comply!. I suppose doctors tend to have a more casual attitude to illness but all the same, they just don't seem so worried about Covid. They are, however, very worried about other illnesses, especially noncommunicable diseases and most are extremely concerned about global warming.

OP, did you know that this is the hottest year on record? Now, that IS something to fret about! We need our kids in school getting the best possible education as they will soon be the next generation of scientists, politicians, journalists, doctors to hopefully solve the problems previous generations have created.

@MagpieSong

Realistically we have no idea what would have happened if we had done a Sweden. Nobody is saying they're the same. But we don't know what would have happened because we didn't do it.

Even still I'd rather live in Sweden's and payer higher taxes to have healthcare I can actually access and my freedom back.

I've said this many times but this is not living, this is purely existing. And the next crisis will be a mental health one which is probably more fatal than covid but everyone on here whining about taking it seriously will be on here whining about how people need to be more resilient and stop killing themselves because it's selfish.

@CatteStreet

I also think the pandemic has revealed a lot of structural problems in UK society. An over-dependence on expensive offices and sandwich shops. The point someone made above that people who fear for their jobs won't isolate - where you have people on zero-hours contracts who can be dismissed for virtually any reason, you are not going to achieve the kind of compliance with public health measures you need. And above all the minimisation followed by an abrupt U-turn into fearmongering performed by this government, which seems to stem from an inability at the top to face serious situations calmly and take responsible, clearly communicated decisions in the interests of all. Bluster and 'optics' rule.

I totally agree with this. Covid has revealed and exposed all the weaknesses in whatever country is battling it. And I’m sorry to say but it’s also shown up the arrogance of some people.

It’s also shown us that we have horrendous leadership in times of crisis.

@TheSilence - I agree a lot of people minimise the virus. Just as many on mumsnet minimise the effects of measures taken to limit its spread, and they are just as tiresome and unhelpful as the virus deniers. Obviously you are right that the biggest problem with this virus is that it is new, so nobody knows as much about it as they would like. That doesn’t actually mean we can or should all completely isolate ourselves until we know everything we want to know about it, though, as that would require us to isolate forever. Seems to me we still understand very little about any viruses, or the causes of multiple syndromes that are probably linked to multiple viruses. Even large sections of the medical community itself used to hold pretty offensive opinions about the possible causes of chronic fatigue syndrome - or “yuppy flu” as the media used to refer to it - for example. And this lack of truly taking it seriously resulted in many people suffering for many years without anyone apparently feeling any sense of urgency to do anything about it. So, we are in panic mode about this virus at the moment, as we were with HIV in the early 80s, and we have a fine line to tread between caution around a poorly understood risk and needing to get on with our lives rather than finding an alternative way to wreck them. We won’t know whether we are getting the balance right or wrong until looking back in retrospect, so anyone coming down vehemently on either side of the argument is being arrogant to be so certain of their opinions!

How n earth can someone say a person does not have a personality disorder from that one post? Also I did not say that they did

It does show a lack of considering the other side of covid, including the mental health issues caused by the restrictions, to focus purely on the disease.

@TheNewLook

Totally disagree OP. I think the world has collectively lost its mind. I also think those who give the advice (scientists) are so invested in their beliefs and research that they are holding their ground and attempting to save face when it has become very clear that Covid’s average victim is 82. The average life expectancy in this country is 81. A year of our lives has been wasted due to a virus that the vast majority won’t get and, if they do, they’ll not only survive but barely notice.

Totally agree.

Also strange to then to on to suggest DBT (which I understand is a treatment for personality disorders)..all a bit odd.

[quote Autumnleavestime]@TheSilence where specifically are you seeing all that sort of stuff said?

Personally I can't say I've seen a huge amount of people say stuff like that. Not denying it gets said, but I don't feel it's the majority.

Even my very laid back and usually blasé dh was on about this back in December saying we should close the borders.

Most people I know are taking it very seriously indeed and following all government advice. I haven't seen my parents since March because they are vulnerable. I know healthy people who are still afraid to go shopping.

I do think the tide is turning and people are starting to feel that restrictions need to be proportionate because Covid isn't the only thing that matters.

[/quote]
@Autumnleavestime some people I know have said a few of these things.

And I’ve just read the rest online, Twitter, Instagram. I don’t use Facebook. Just online in general. On here as well. I probably should stay off the internet lately!

Btw I’m sorry I’m quoting everyone I’m replying to, it’s just easier on my phone to do it that way.

@MadameBlobby

People don’t really have any choice but to take it seriously when the government have changed people’s lives brutally recognition and destroyed their capacity to earn a living. Who is your post aimed at exactly?

I’m not sure who it’s aimed at because you’re right, in general we have no choice but to take it seriously. I guess just at people who are ignoring the rules or who keep repeating that it’s a cold/flu.

Totally disagree OP. I think the world has collectively lost its mind. I also think those who give the advice (scientists) are so invested in their beliefs and research that they are holding their ground and attempting to save face when it has become very clear that Covid’s average victim is 82. The average life expectancy in this country is 81. A year of our lives has been wasted due to a virus that the vast majority won’t get and, if they do, they’ll not only survive but barely notice.

This.