France - is this where we’re heading?

[Dustballs]

I’m shocked at the figures over there for number of infections.

Anyone actually in France - what is it like over there now? We were on holiday there and at the time it felt worrying to read 3,000 daily infections were being recorded. UK caught up quickly though.

I wonder what it’s like in France now as that is likely to be us soon.

Anyone else think the more a country is strict with masks, the worse the infection rate?

Is this because they make you “feel” safer but do bugger all? I watched a guy enter a cafe the other day. Pulled his snood over his face with his hands (touching it), touched the door and entered. Hands on menus/toilet doors etc. If it lives this long on hard surfaces then touching a dirty mask is surely a way to spread it?

The studies on masks are done in a simulated environment. Yes they might not spread droplets as much, but I’m betting filthy cloth on our faces used day after day is making this worse

@Calledyoulastnightfromglasgow

Masks are not sufficient in isolation. One has to still maintain hand hygiene and social distancing/reduced contact. Also, fabric/surgical masks help protect the recipient, not the wearer. Only ffp3/n95 masks work towards.

But, as someone who works in healthcare, if someone has a contagious respiratory illness, masks are essential to reduce (not eliminate) transmission along with the other measures. The general populace may get complacent but it is basic infection control.

Are you aware that we have a higher death rate per million of population than France?

Barely any difference, by ECDC data (last updated yesterday)

Death rate per 100,000
France 2.4, UK 2.5

Cases per 100,000
France 453.5 UK 367.5

According to the BBC the death rate per 100 000 people is:
UK 65.8
France 52.1

(3 day rolling average)

Anyway Im in France. Masks are worn by everyone even in the office.

Hand gel available at entrance to all shops, at bus stops, in offices and mandatory at school gates for children (parents aren't allowed in unless for the under 6s and they have to have their hands sprayed too).

Social distancing on the beach last summer was unorchestrated and absolutely fabulous.

Gyms, pools and sports clubs are shut except for children who do clubs.

I don't feel unsafe. But the economy worries me much more.

If it’s basic infection control, why are mask wearing countries performing worse?

Yes yes yes I understand masks can help reduce transmission BUT no one is washing them, they are worn all day and I think this “basic infection control” isn’t working. I think it is worsening it

Yes there may be a case for trashing the planet and using disposables and them
helping. (Not something I would choose myself). But I suspect cloth masks are increasing infection rates and we are seeing that in country specific data

ECDC data is the 14 day rolling version

I agree with Qasd - the worst affected European countries are starting to look depressingly similar in terms of death statistics, no matter what different measures are tried. Even if their case numbers are 1000s apart. Maybe it's just arrogant to think we're stronger than nature and can control a virus. Except for Germany, who are seeing a second wave but have a long way to go to have anything like as serious a problem as the rest of us. I'm interested to see if they can keep rates low and if so, what we can learn from them.

From the WHO:
Belgium - 23,277 cases per 1M, 912 deaths per 1M
Spain - 23,321 cases per 1M, 738 deaths per 1M
France - 15,925 cases per 1M, 524 deaths per 1M
Netherlands - 15,304 cases per 1M, 404 deaths per 1M
UK - 11,919 cases per 1M, 652 deaths per 1M
Italy - 7,706 cases per 1M, 612 deaths per 1M
Germany - 4,819 cases per 1M, 120 deaths per 1M

Different countries count in different ways, the only useful measure is excess deaths, the difference between the official no. Of deaths in the uk and excess deaths is massive, so some serious undercounting. Not sure this was the point of the thread though.

Yes yes yes I understand masks can help reduce transmission BUT no one is washing them, they are worn all day and I think this “basic infection control” isn’t working. I think it is worsening it

This is supposition. Lots of people wash their reusable masks-I'm one of them and I'm sure you are also. Just cause some don't, that's not to say no one does.

As for saying it is worse in mask-wearing countries, can you provide evidence? I, personally, don't know the stats but you seem to?

As I said, mask wearing is not foolproof in isolation of other measures.

I’m wondering the same. That the virus just takes its natural course and the measures only help slightly.

I agree the general public are not well trained enough in infection control to use the masks effectively. And yes not washing and then rewearing just makes things worse...

We were in France over the summer as we are every year - I have always been perplexed by the idea that it is somehow more strict than here - there was council-run outdoor mass entertainment (as there usually is) , really erratic mask wearing (as here in the UK) and people gathering in large groups for weddings etc as people have said. I think the main problem is that the only way to stop the virus is to see far fewer people than we want to , and the rules are actually (like speed limits) not a target but a genuine limit, and i think no European country except Germany seems to be able to get that message across to its population. It is rubbish and this is a really long haul (and I think our government is a total shitshow) but I suspect at the ned we will all end up in the same position (the tragedy of the care homes as a possible exception)

I'm in very rural France, I'd say even on a trip to Paris a few months ago there was 100% compliance with mask wearing, which wasn't the case in London the week before.

We become red zone tomorrow, I assume because of cases in the cities. I can't remember the last time I was out as late as 9pm so it will have no effect. Socialising round here tends to be lunchtime and frequently in people's homes.

I agree the general public are not well trained enough in infection control to use the masks effectively. And yes not washing and then rewearing just makes things worse..

To be fair, the UK govt were great about promoting the handwashing and social distancing message in the beginning. These messages don't seem as well-promoted like they were...I don't feel it would be difficult to have govt promotion of good mask wearing in addition to reinforcing the earlier messages. It's not rocket science!

I think we need a different strategy. It’s one thing asking people not to see family and friends for a few months but for a year? Of course compliance will go down.

It might not be rocket science but I doubt you’ll have much success trying to get people to constantly wash their masks, or to not reuse disposable ones.. People on the whole are just paying lip service to this. They’ll wear the mask because they have to but will they do all the other extra measures required? No.

Are these curfews pushing socialising in to peoples’ homes? Which is more risky and can’t be policed? Hmm

I just posted about this. France has a shocking infection rate but only reported 34 more deaths over the weekend compared to the UK but 50,000 more cases. This despite the UK preforming double the number of tests compared to France and France having a slightly older population.

look at my thread here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/4058500-UK-seeing-more-deaths-compared-to-France-because-of-Obesity?watched=1&msgid=101092618#101092618

@anuffername

But hey, it’s yet another thread about how amazing other countries are and how shite Britain is.

Did you actually read the OP?
It's nothing of the sort.

Posters who actually live in France are just stating the facts of how life is for them.

Yes we are mostly under curfew now - for 6 weeks. Hefty fines for not complying.

Local businesses are having to make the decision whether to close early for the winter.

All bars in our area have been told to close.

Not sure how any of that is insinuating that France is amazing/UK is shite?

Oh they have a better set up, everyone wears masks properly...unless the feckless Brits

There has been constant reverse British exceptionalism on this site for months. It’s all a bit tedious.

*unlike

Bloody phone

The death rate in France has been lower than the uk, and the numbers in hosptial always much higher, so whilst i agree obesity has played a part i also believe that maybe this played a part. For example in the height i believe the uk had 19,000 in hosptial at the maximum but France had 33,000. So maybe early and more hosptialisation help as well.

I’m in rural France too but not in a curfew zone. Everyone wears masks in shops etc. Then there are crazy things like for example a large yatch/boat sale event (not the Vendée Globe) that attracts over 50 000 people in normal years. That is supposed to be going ahead next weekend and I can’t quite believe it tbh.

I don’t know what will happen if people start to socialise in private homes instead of going out. I can’t imagine it will go well if the police try to control that! I think Jean Castex called on people’s sense of responsibility in his next to last speech.

The curfews aren't pushing people into other people's homes...unless they re sleeping over. Cos you'd still have to get home and after 9pm you're not allowed out (unless working or you have a train or plane ticket).

Fair enough about the curfew . Are people though more likely to choose to go to each other’s houses than to a restaurant/bar if it shuts at 9?

No. The restaurants and bars are really being supported by the public