The rate of infections in schools is being suppressed from public knowledge

[noblegiraffe]

...claims Karam Bales of the NEU.

I’m pretty sure I agree. When the newspapers are going mad about university cases and 13,000 kids and 700 teachers being off school in Birmingham doesn’t make national headlines, then something dodgy is going on.

This twitter thread collates all the evidence and is pretty damning twitter.com/karamballes/status/1315067136394625032?s=21

My own thoughts:
Why are the government ignoring the WHO recommendations on masks?
Why have they stopped PHE deciding who is sent home when there are cases in schools setting up their own helpline instead which sends home far fewer kids?
Why are the figures not being presented in a way that makes it clear which cases are in schools and not universities?
Why did Chris Whitty use a graph of test positivity rates instead of actual infection numbers in his briefing when it came to claiming that schools aren’t an issue?
Why are they insisting that children only get a test if they exhibit one of the three main adult symptoms, ignoring that the majority of children who test positive don’t have any of them?
Why are they insisting on vulnerable children being sent in with the threat of fines for non-attendance?
Why did they spend the summer pretending that unions were blocking the re-opening of schools and then paying social media influencers to say schools are safe, without taking any steps to ensure that they are?
Why did they announce a Plan B of rotas for schools in tiers of lockdown and then never actually use it?
Why did they say that an effective test and trace system was vital to opening schools and then also say they were surprised when demand increased when schools opened?
Why do they keep saying schools are a priority and that be the only thing they say about keeping them open?

And where the fuck is Gavin Williamson?

PractisingPerson not every parent or carer has the luxury of being able to consider part-time schooling, whatever they might prefer.

If part-time schooling with wrap round childcare for at least primary children whose parents/carers need to go out to work had been mooted, it might have been a possibility for more people.

Similarly, if you have no laptop/tablets at home, no Broadband and are horribly over-crowded, part-time schooling would effectively mean very little schooling for these children.

I think there were ways which it could have been seriously considered, but that would involve government investment and awareness of what actually happens in schools, political appetite for which there was none.

But yes you're right. Lots of parents didn't back teachers. The abuse that teachers received on MN over the spring and summer was shocking, and I see even from this thread that some people still can't having a pop.

@christinarossetti19

PractisingPerson not every parent or carer has the luxury of being able to consider part-time schooling, whatever they might prefer.

If part-time schooling with wrap round childcare for at least primary children whose parents/carers need to go out to work had been mooted, it might have been a possibility for more people.

Similarly, if you have no laptop/tablets at home, no Broadband and are horribly over-crowded, part-time schooling would effectively mean very little schooling for these children.

I think there were ways which it could have been seriously considered, but that would involve government investment and awareness of what actually happens in schools, political appetite for which there was none.

I don't have the luxury tbh.

But one of the first things that was thrown at me was I was privileged.

All I said was full time school without social distancing would drive transmission.

Which it has.

If parents had demanded better, we might have got better.

@christinarossetti19

PractisingPerson not every parent or carer has the luxury of being able to consider part-time schooling, whatever they might prefer.

If part-time schooling with wrap round childcare for at least primary children whose parents/carers need to go out to work had been mooted, it might have been a possibility for more people.

Similarly, if you have no laptop/tablets at home, no Broadband and are horribly over-crowded, part-time schooling would effectively mean very little schooling for these children.

I think there were ways which it could have been seriously considered, but that would involve government investment and awareness of what actually happens in schools, political appetite for which there was none.

I completely agree with you.

A system of flexible attendance would be better as then parents who wanted to could opt for remote schooling or hom schooling while parents who really needed their children to be in school could continue to send them and schools could remain open, but also safer for everyone because those who could would be encouraged to keep them home.

Pretty much the opposite of what is happening now, as parents are still being fined for non-attendance! Crazy under the circumstances, as it would actually reduce risk for all.

@mrshoho

I feel like you are conflating two different arguments here.

I appreciate some teachers may be vulnerable to the virus. But only is that likely, statistically speaking, if they are either over 65, or obese, or diabetic etc. We can’t throw children’s education and wellbeing under a bus simply because of this minority group of teachers. Of course it’s terrible for this group of teachers. But many teachers aren’t afraid nor vulnerable and it would be a gross overreaction to close schools solely for that minority cohort Of teachers who are vulnerable. I think vulnerable teachers should be excused from work for the time being and compensated financially and appropriately. This virus is likely going to be around for long enough for the government to start planning this from a strategic perspective (ie Temporary or permanent replacement of vulnerable staff) otherwise we could be writing off education for 10 years or more (vaccine dependent). Which is clearly not morally or economically viable.

@PracticingPerson

I appreciate your point regarding not wanting schools to drive transmission to older sections of the population. However there is a string argument that unless older sections of the population are actually accessing the school building, there is no reason it should drive transmission to older people. For example, my children attend school to meet their educational and social needs. To maintain family relationships with older family members, we are all old enough and responsible enough to conduct these relationships outdoors (as is now required in tier 2 and 3 anyway) by wrapping up warm and heading out on walks together.

The only exception to this is where it could contribute to passing the virus to parents who work in caring professions with the elderly or in hospitals. Which is where regular testing should be carried out to prevent this.

In fact, resources should not be directed at testing children anyway. It’s futile - so many are asymptomatic. Let’s just focus on very regular testing of those who through employment come into contact with the vulnerable so that we protect the vulnerable. And then we can let the children continue hopefully having happy childhoods, learning and playing and not worrying about things that quite frankly, the adults should be worrying about for them.

This virus is a reality and the fact is it’s going nowhere fast. It’s time to accept the reality and accept that educating children - who aren’t at risk - needs to carry on regardless. We don’t live in a perfect world. Surely no one can continue to advocate children continuing to pay for this throughout their childhoods before they even get to paying for it as adults through their taxes in the future.

@Ouchy in practice this sounds reasonable but the reality is that with two working parents, grandparents have often become a critical part of wraparound childcare for the family.

The number of grandparents that I still see at the school gates upsets me enormously and I can only imagine that those families have no other option.

Also in larger cities and particularly in certain BAME populations, multigenerational living is very common (and in normal times, a really wonderful solution to both caring for the elderly and children!).

I don't really think it's as easy to separate the vulnerable from the rest of the world as we might like it to be.

ouchy I agree with everything you say.

Ouchy, how about you come and teach a few lessons in my school? Your posts are like someone telling a nurse working in an overrun COVID Ward that everything is fine because you’ve read that it’s fine.

Things are not fine. Children are not getting taught anything in schools hit by the virus. In large secondaries, once it takes hold, you have about two weeks before the school closes. If it hasn’t hit your school yet, it will at some point.

This is the worst of all possible worlds- we can’t teach kids in school much, I had 4 children out of thirty in my last class. I can’t set decent work for home, because I’m busy teaching the 4 children who are actually in school.

How is this putting children first?

In fact, resources should not be directed at testing children anyway. It’s futile - so many are asymptomatic. Let’s just focus on very regular testing of those who through employment come into contact with the vulnerable

Do you think kids live in a bubble away from vulnerable people? They live with them, are taught by them in school, and may actually be vulnerable themselves.

@ouchy sounds lovely but it's not just a few vulnerable teachers that would need to be replaced. Go in to any school and there will be a considerable % of staff 'vulnerable' for whatever reason; Age, BMI, BAME, Health conditions. It's just not as easy as you imagine it to be unfortunately.

@MotherOfDragonite
I totally get your points. I wonder if those reliant on grandparents in this way would need to review childcare arrangements. I expect this might be financially difficult for some families. Where I live I’d expect to see a coming together of the community to help with children whose grandparents wished to avoid the virus (and quite rightly so). I also think vulnerable parents should have the option to keep children out of school without fines temporarily, and also without losing their places.

Unfortunately if education continues to be disrupted so greatly, the knock on effect will be increasing the education gap between the rich and poor. As the really wealthy already keep their children in private schools which can better manage due to buildings/resources, and provide better home learning. And those who can afford private but haven’t gone down that route yet, will move to it.

This is where allowing society to repeatedly lock down results in worse repercussions for the poor than the rich. Given the virus is going nowhere, repeatedly closing schools means we are accepting and condoning an exacerbation of worsening life chances for northern, and/or poorer children. That is not something I am comfortable with. And it really is true that this virus is not going away.

Our private school and all the local ones are completely full this academic year with waiting lists (not usual). There's been a bit of an exodus from those who can afford it.

And of course I agree that state schools should be better funded. But this is happening now! You shouldn’t be arguing with me. We should Collectively be angry with the governments lack of planning and inadequate resourcing of the nhs and education sector. Also, you’ll see from the above these are proposed solutions. I think to be honest we do need to be solution focussed here. The responses seem to be critical of proposed solutions but don’t seem to be proposing any alternative solutions? Keeping children locked in their homes without social interaction etc is definitely not the answer to this, so any ideas of long-term part time schooling or home schooling seems very unfair to me.

@CountessFrog

Very unhelpful to pit the nhs against teachers. I’m sorry that the nation didn’t clap for you arranging your online lessons. My primary aged child got no such lessons

We’d have been clapping for a long time if we’d clapped all the key workers. My postman deserves a clap for all that heavy lugging.

I think people clapped really for those who were washing, medicating, ventilating and caring for people with the infection. It was a clap for their bravery and the pulling together of the NHS family.

I think you misunderstood. No one is pitting the NHS against teachers. The point is that we can't afford to lose either!

The media has gone out of its way to highlight the importance of health care workers, which is well deserved. But teachers have taken a battering at every turn. If we want to preserve the education system for our children, we need to throw more support towards keeping the staff safe. Otherwise who is going to teach our children next year?

[quote Ouchy]@MotherOfDragonite
I totally get your points. I wonder if those reliant on grandparents in this way would need to review childcare arrangements. I expect this might be financially difficult for some families. Where I live I’d expect to see a coming together of the community to help with children whose grandparents wished to avoid the virus (and quite rightly so). I also think vulnerable parents should have the option to keep children out of school without fines temporarily, and also without losing their places.

Unfortunately if education continues to be disrupted so greatly, the knock on effect will be increasing the education gap between the rich and poor. As the really wealthy already keep their children in private schools which can better manage due to buildings/resources, and provide better home learning. And those who can afford private but haven’t gone down that route yet, will move to it.

This is where allowing society to repeatedly lock down results in worse repercussions for the poor than the rich. Given the virus is going nowhere, repeatedly closing schools means we are accepting and condoning an exacerbation of worsening life chances for northern, and/or poorer children. That is not something I am comfortable with. And it really is true that this virus is not going away.[/quote]
Unfortunately the reality is that so many parents in big expensive cities are reliant on grandparent care, it would be impossible to replace them all.

I also notice that my bank of childcare options has reduced drastically. It has made me aware of how much we rely upon people who are vulnerable in some way to keep our society going with affordable childcare. For example, nobody who is able to work a full-time job is likely to prefer to become a provider of before and after school care -- as it turns out, the ones I've used are all vulnerable to Covid due to age or because of medical conditions, which are the things that led them to do this work in the first place.

I wish it was different but so many people have elderly relatives living with them here that I can well imagine they think "well, they might as well do the school pick up since they live with us anyway". And it's true.

I am very strongly in favour of keeping schools open, but to do that they actually have to invest money into risk mitigation! It's just crazy that no money has been put into improved ventilation when we have strong evidence for its importance. And I also believe equally strongly that parents should have a choice about whether it's right for their children to attend without being fined, which is why I keep sharing this petition: petition.parliament.uk/petitions/551740 -- parents can take a overall view of their family circumstances and make the best decision for their family.

My fear is that without (a) allowing parents to have a choice, and (b) actually funding risk mitigation, schools will end up having to close altogether -- which I think would be tragic for the children who really need them to stay open.

@Janevaljane it’s the same here, I know of at least three local families who have jumped ship from our local state schools and moved their children to private to prevent their education being affected by the pandemic.

@MotherOfDragonite I will have a look at your petition and probably sign. Your arguments are making sense to me

@MotherOfDragonite and totally agree that parents should have a choice

Sorry @3littlewords it’s gets a bit tense !

[quote Ouchy]@Janevaljane it’s the same here, I know of at least three local families who have jumped ship from our local state schools and moved their children to private to prevent their education being affected by the pandemic.[/quote]
Other than smaller class sizes what else does private school offer to prevent covid?

Thank you @Ouchy. I think I have been channelling my feelings of uselessness and worry into writing to my MP and sharing petitions that I think could have some chance of helping!

Looking at other countries, particularly Canada, I do feel it is possible for us to do so much better. To avoid deaths and protect the vulnerable, but still show up for children and keep the schools open (even if that means investing, evolving, and doing things in new ways).

@3littlewords I'm very much inclined to think that the smaller class sizes are a major benefit. The figures from June, when some year groups returned to school but with social distancing and smaller class sizes, were quite encouraging.

But also remember that private schools have better and bigger facilities generally, so can also spread out more.

Some, like Benenden, have even bought their own Covid testing machines (which actually makes a lot of sense when you think about it!) while most others are investing in private testing with quick turnaround to help them manage it better.

[quote Ouchy]@mrshoho

I feel like you are conflating two different arguments here.

I appreciate some teachers may be vulnerable to the virus. But only is that likely, statistically speaking, if they are either over 65, or obese, or diabetic etc. We can’t throw children’s education and wellbeing under a bus simply because of this minority group of teachers. Of course it’s terrible for this group of teachers. But many teachers aren’t afraid nor vulnerable and it would be a gross overreaction to close schools solely for that minority cohort Of teachers who are vulnerable. I think vulnerable teachers should be excused from work for the time being and compensated financially and appropriately. This virus is likely going to be around for long enough for the government to start planning this from a strategic perspective (ie Temporary or permanent replacement of vulnerable staff) otherwise we could be writing off education for 10 years or more (vaccine dependent). Which is clearly not morally or economically viable.

@PracticingPerson

I appreciate your point regarding not wanting schools to drive transmission to older sections of the population. However there is a string argument that unless older sections of the population are actually accessing the school building, there is no reason it should drive transmission to older people. For example, my children attend school to meet their educational and social needs. To maintain family relationships with older family members, we are all old enough and responsible enough to conduct these relationships outdoors (as is now required in tier 2 and 3 anyway) by wrapping up warm and heading out on walks together.

The only exception to this is where it could contribute to passing the virus to parents who work in caring professions with the elderly or in hospitals. Which is where regular testing should be carried out to prevent this.

In fact, resources should not be directed at testing children anyway. It’s futile - so many are asymptomatic. Let’s just focus on very regular testing of those who through employment come into contact with the vulnerable so that we protect the vulnerable. And then we can let the children continue hopefully having happy childhoods, learning and playing and not worrying about things that quite frankly, the adults should be worrying about for them.

This virus is a reality and the fact is it’s going nowhere fast. It’s time to accept the reality and accept that educating children - who aren’t at risk - needs to carry on regardless. We don’t live in a perfect world. Surely no one can continue to advocate children continuing to pay for this throughout their childhoods before they even get to paying for it as adults through their taxes in the future.[/quote]
There's a lot wrong in here imo.

• testing children is very important because they are likely to be asymptomatic
• the virus is not spread to.older people by them going into school, but by school pupils taking the virus home to the rest of society
• what about the high cost of health care for those in ICU etc?
• what about the economic fallout of not controlling the virus?
• what about bereavement?
• who is having a 'happy childhood' now?

I do accept the reality of the virus. That's why I never advocated pretending schools could open full time without it damaging my children's futures. Time to get real I think.