Why are we Forgetting Save the NHS / Flatten the Curve

[Flaxmeadow]

We, and also other countries, locked down to prevent the collapse of the health service. To prevent millions of people catching the virus in a shore space of time. To stop services being overwhelmed, not just by those dying but by those many more who would also require medical assistance

Science and government told us back in the summer that if we hadn't had lockdown, then in the UK half a million people would already have died. This is a conservative estimate and is agreed on by most scientist, and these kind of numbers agreed globally too.

This is why we have lockdowns. To flatten the curve. So that we still have a functioning NHS, functioning social services and police.

Are people forgetting all this now and if so why?

What are consultants doing ATM? Have none of them been working since March? I can't see how that can be true

When people weren't being seen by NHS or not in same numbers people didn't stop developing conditions or stop needing monitoring as a results many services now have huge backlogs/waiting lists that need to be worked through.

There has also been a rise in later referrals which can mean more urgent cases needing to be seen before people already on lists as screening services or initial appointments have been harder or impossible to get.

Plus new covid rules can mean fewer people can be seen than previously in some clinics.

I know FIL was removed from one hospital waiting list -due to be seen in April initally- and place on another hospital list in effort to deal with huge waiting list - to be seen November. Unfortunately, he can’t get to new hospital at all – public transport from where he is there isn’t there and due to covid can’t ask usual people for lifts – taxi way to expensive – so he’s been put back on original list looking like next year. That clinic is clearly is running and clearly trying to catch up but there's still a delay for him.

The esteemed Boris Johnson sat at the desk in March and told us that we will have beaten it in 12 weeks.

I had an appointment at the weekend, it was just a scan so no need for a full medical team. The eye clinics are usually bursting at the seams, standing room only, going on the layout of the chairs usual capacity must be right down, this will have a massive effect on waiting lists etc.

I can't fault what has happened when we actually have had an appointment (DS also had a MRI, but this was a next day cancellation) but other things have been cancelled and /or delayed.

Yes some appointments were delayed for a few weeks but then new ones sent out not long after.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaahhaha

You're presumably either a government stooge, never had an actual appointment or are extremely lucky (and oblivious).

Flaxmeadow
You are really not listening to all those who are telling you how they are unable to access NHS services
It doesn’t matter what the government or the press are saying
It is what is actually happening or not happening that matters

Minor in the grand scheme of things, but my son was on a waiting list for speech therapy for a mild stammer. Lockdown came, speech therapy stopped and the mild stammer is now becoming more severe and there's no telling when he will be able to actually start ST now. He is getting to the age where it will be more difficult for him to "unlearn".

Thats not even going into the effect its having on his confidence and dealing with the kids at school mocking him.

My child was losing vision in one her eye and it was being monitored as she was right at the upper end of the age range to have a chance of treating it adequately. Appointment to see what action could be taken due in March - cancelled.

It is now October - she's struggling to read schoolbooks and getting headaches. Last communication we had from them was in June saying it was still cancelled.

So don't fucking tell me I'm lying and that the NHS is functioning with treatment because it fucking well isn't. The fucking hospital letters are on the bloody fridge

@Flaxmeadow

Back in March the top bod in the NHS said urgent and vital life saving treatments would still go ahead. It's in the link I posted (article from 17th of March I think). Infact later the government had to remind people about this because people were not attending important appointments or A&E So what has happened to change that? What are consultants doing ATM? Have none of them been working since March? I can't see how that can be true

So you think all the people on here saying they aren't getting appointments are lying? I managed to get hold of the hospital today, they said my urgent appointment wouldn't be until at least March and that it would be a telephone appointment only and that they were not doing any procedures currently.

The NHS itself says that treatments and operations have been cancelled. Unsure why you're saying they haven't.

This statement is from our nearest functioning hospital (our actual one in town was only ever very limited anyway):

Just like the rest of the NHS, our number one priority for the last few months has been ensuring that all those who need urgent care - not just those with coronavirus - have been able to get it when they need it. Combined with the need to avoid unnecessary contact to reduce the spread of the virus, this has meant that some non-urgent appointments and surgeries may have been postponed, and others delivered differently using technology.

We are now preparing to gradually increase some important face-to-face services, but only where this can be done safely - the virus is still circulating and we don’t want to put our patients, the public or our staff at greater risk. Thank you for your patience and understanding during these difficult times.

The hospital trust statement on our GP website is that elective surgeries were cancelled also. This is not news.

So we did all that for covid. And then the NHS sent people with covid out to nursing homes to die. They also refused to admit anyone with covid unless they needed intensive treatment.

So, basically, everything apart from covid cancelled, anyone seriously ill with covid who could be shunted into a nursing home removed there to infect others, and anyone who wasn't at imminent risk of death from covid also refused treatment.

Bit too much fucking protection of the NHS going on really imo.

So don't fucking tell me I'm lying and that the NHS is functioning with treatment because it fucking well isn't. The fucking hospital letters are on the bloody fridge

Blimey clam down, I haven't accused anyone of lying

So you think all the people on here saying they aren't getting appointments are lying

No, but I can only go by what's happening in my own area health authority.

Sorry if my OP is confusing, but this is not really what the topic is about anyway. I'm asking why some people don't understand what was said in March about the virus. That there was and still is no end in sight. The reasons for lockdown are still here. That without the lockdowns we have no functioning, or partly functioning, NHS at all

So we can see that the virus is having a negative effect on the NHS , even if we disagree about how widespread that disruption currently is

Does that mean people want much tougher action and a return to a tough lockdown in order to protect it more and enable it to get back to normal more quickly ?

So we can see that the virus is having a negative effect on the NHS , even if we disagree about how widespread that disruption currently is

Yes but its having a negative effect on everything isn't it. It's all shit, lockdowns are horrible but what is the alternative?

Does that mean people want much tougher action and a return to a tough lockdown in order to protect it more and enable it to get back to normal more quickly ?

We cannot get back to normal in the foreseeable future

I think this is my point. Some people don't understand the seriousness of the situation. Because they didn't listen to the briefings or what has actually been said and what has not been said

It isn't going away. It's still a crisis

Would just like to put a shout out to my local NHS Trust... I've been reading so much about people missing out on routine diagnostic appointments through cancellation due to Covid, but that is not my FILs experience in the slightest. 28th July he had a funny turn. Spoke to GP who thought mini stroke and said he would be referred. Week later received his appointment for mid August. At appointment had an MRI and CT and they discovered 3 brain tumours and a dodgy lymph node. It's now October 3rd. He's already had a positive result back on his node following biopsy. Has already had 3 rounds of radiosurgery up at the Marsden and is due to start his long term treatment at the end of the week. All within 2 months of his funny turn. I can't fault the service he has received. I know this isn't going to help the people who are still waiting, just a story to say it's not all doom and gloom.

My question was less to you flax than some of the others on here...

I'm asking why some people don't understand what was said in March about the virus. That there was and still is no end in sight. The reasons for lockdown are still here.

I think people do understand that. However, they also understand that lockdowns come with a cost - to non covid patients, to economy people's livelihoods and education. Some of these costs are really long term and as lockdowns go on for more people get caught up in these other costs.

There aren't easy choices and answers and people's experiences will affect their view of cost/benefit - back in March the Government briefing were acknowledging that there were trade offs.

I think a better track and trace system avaliable earlier, fewer testing obstacles clearer public messaging and a better funded NHS would all have helped mitigate need for so many lockdowns.

However with current situation I think lockdowns are necessary but my livelihood isn't in a sector decimated by covid lockdowns so it's easier for me to say that. Plus the lockdown rules we are currently under don't really impact us and poorer access to NHs services are more an annoyance - routine check up being delayed rather than anything more serious.

"How can any of us know whether lockdown worked or works or made a difference?

Of course it made a difference. The numbers stopped climbing "

The numbers of what stopped climbing?

We were hardly testing for cases in March/April, so we have no idea what the numbers of positives were.

Deaths? According to the ONS 95% of deaths are recorded 25-39 days after infection. Peak deaths was 8 April, thereafter the death numbers fell. Lockdown was 23 March. Do the the maths. Does it look as if it was lockdown alone that resulted in falling deaths?

We can see that fewer people are in hospital with covid than at the artificially created peak,

even if the death rate may not be quite as low as we might think, we can see that fewer people are dying of covid than at the artificially created peak

You keep saying we were told in March - so what? (We were told a huge range of things in March, one of them was bound to come true anyway). If I told you in March that I was making you homeless tomorrow would that make it better? Would you have felt like you could complain about that or would you be quietly accepting that you’d had fair warning?

I’m in a fortunate position- I could live like this indefinitely if my kids stay at school. But if I was facing imminent unemployment or homelessness then frankly, that would be my immediate concern. Having a “functioning nhs” (and at the moment it isn’t functioning except for possibly some very acute care) wouldn’t be a lot of comfort as I moved into a temporary accommodation b&b with my child. Where’s the help and support and compensation and sacrifices for those paying the price for this saving of lives and the nhs - because on the whole they’re a very different population to the one that’s being protected by it.

I’m happy for you that you can be calm and reasonable and sacrificial - I don’t understand why you don’t understand that other people might just find that harder than you do.

I can't understand why people who are facing joblessness and eviction are not actually pushing for much stricter virus control because that's the only thing that will help the economy

Go look up the stats, the countries with lowest economic hit are the ones that have controlled the virus better

Because what exactly are we saving when people are dying to not being able to get cancer checks?

The point is not to overwhelm the NHS in order for it to still be able to run and help people, well it's not overwhelmed and people still can't access medical care and cancer checks!!!!!

Theres been one million missed mammograms alone. If even 1% of these women had cancer thats 10,000 missed breast cancer diagnoses alone.

That's because it is really is overwhelmed in that it can no longer cope with demand and keep people safe

A direct result of underfunding badged up as efficiency

I can't understand why people who are facing joblessness and eviction are not actually pushing for much stricter virus control because that's the only thing that will help the economy

And then what? We open back up and cases rise again, and each lockdown does for how many more businesses and jobs? No more furlough now either.

I said it on another thread

It's like housework you do it, and you do it again

Personally I would like the light touch rather than full lockdown, but that only works if people use their brains and distance as much as possible and then a bit more

Health, wealth and education.

And how to balance them all? It's an almost impossible task.

We haven't forgotten "flatten the curve" hopefully it's more "keep curve low and flat" and hope our personal sacrifices (as everyone has them as individual and important as each one is) help as many people get through this as best they can.

But whatever the policies they are not going to fit your own personal circumstances.

The, unexpected necessary and routine services we have needed from the NHS so far have been, slightly different, but available.

We can only do our little bit. So we do that as best we can.