What hope do we have when MPs can't follow the rules?

[mrshoho]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-54379026

She travelled from London by train from Scotland to London and back knowing she was positive! And visited parliament! no excuse for this.

@notevenat20

It might be worth mentioning that she didn’t actually break the law.

Her position is completely untenable regardless.

@RaggieDolls Cummings actions were no way near reasonable - he disobeyed his own clear 'stay at home' instructions to travel across the country where his symptomatic wife and child ended up visiting a hospital in the North East, coming into contact with health care workers and possibly other patients there. People travelling to second homes in Italy had led to the spread of disease there as he well knew. Then his 'eyetest' check excurison to a beauty spot that just happened to be on his wife's birthday. Reasonable? I think not!

At least Sturgeon has called her actions "utterly indefensible" quite the contrast with Johnson who supported Cummings stating, '"In every respect, he has acted responsibly, legally and with integrity".

If everyone bends the rules to suit their own circumstances better it's entirely pointless having any.

@notevenat20

Yes I understand that but were there not laws already in Scotland giving police the powers to fine people for doing exactly what she did?

I am not aware that the law was actually different in Scotland. Can you quote the law that are referring to? It's quite possible the guidance was different but that's another matter.

I don't think there is an equivalent law in Scotland. NS was keen to distance herself from the "inhumane" approach of BJ, where people would be fined for not self isolating where they could have no other option. She mentioned providing support for those needing to self isolate, rather than fining those who didn't (there is a fine for not quarantining after holidays, but that's different). I'm wondering if she may be reconsidering that decision now?!

And I agree with Notevenat20 that I don't think MF did break the law in England either. I think she may have stated that she took the test on Saturday (before the cutoff of Monday) to make that point. Though it is maybe arguable that the clause refers to getting the result after the 28th regardless of when the test was taken? (She says, hopefully...!)

In any case, she totally went against both the spirit and letter of the guidance by leaving her home at all after her symptoms developed. It is indefensible and I'd be surprised if she hasn't resigned by the end of the day. And if she hasn't, the HofC disciplinary committee needs to suspend her to allow her constituents to recall her. I hate to say it, but she makes Cummings look utterly reasonable.

I'm actually more depressed about this event than many, many others in the last 6 months. We don't stand a chance of getting through this if people don't even attempt to self isolate when symptomatic, and even when testing positive. I'm meh about lots of the other restrictions/ requirements and whether they will actually do any good, but even I can see that self isolation (along with cough/ hand hygiene and social distancing where possible) are absolute necessities.... Aaaaaargh.

@joystir59

They do what the fuck they like but I couldn't sit at the bedside of my lovely wife when she was terminally ill in hospital.

That's what makes my blood boil

@NotAnActualSheep quite the opposite I think it's a reminder of how unreasonable Cummings actions (see my post above) and Johnson's backing for him were.

Both Cummings and Ferrier went against both the spirit and letter of the guidance by leaving home at all after symptoms developed.
Ferrier must have known there was a chance she had Covid as she had one of the elusive tests.

Totally agree with @NotAnActualSheep :

I'm actually more depressed about this event than many, many others in the last 6 months. We don't stand a chance of getting through this if people don't even attempt to self isolate when symptomatic, and even when testing positive

She had symptoms enough to get a test. She is an MP. She took public transport, then went into her place of work. Likely passing through restaurants , sandwich shops and the tube on her way.

If I was a constituent, I would be utterly disgusted. I have mixed feelings about all the restrictions being placed on us, but I follow them so my DS can hopefully continue to go to school and my elderly DPs are less likely to catch covid.

She is either arrogant, thick, or privately the government is not as worried about the spread of coronavirus as they want us to be. I am hoping it's one of the first two.

@notevenat20

She must resign or lose her job (can her constituents do something to kick her out?) and I hope the police prosecute to the extent of their powers.

Would you also want that for all your friends who break these rules?

After a positive rest and showing symptoms? Of course!

It's probably wise to also remember that these are not just guidelines now, but Laws.

What she has done is way worse than cummings. He travelled as he wanted care for his 4 year old child and at least drove in his own car (although likely stopped for petrol). Presumably if he did not have a 4 year old he would have been able to stay at home.
This mp travelled on two long train journeys plus presumably the tube twice too to get to westminster possibly changing lines , once with symptoms but worse a return journey with a positive test!!
Coming into contact with hundreds of london tube passengers plus the train passengers plus all the mp's and staff in the HOC.
Plus she crticised others for doing less!
Quite extraordinary.
Maybe we should ban snp mp's from coming to london spread ing their covid everywhere.
Will be interesting to see what nicola does now the boot is on the other foot.

I haven't reported my neighbours for little things like walking the dog early morning when they are meant to be in quarantine after being abroad, or having a couple more teenagers in to celebrate a birthday, or our dog sibling group planning an outdoor meet with too many people, as I'm not in favour of living in a stasi state and also deep down I feel they aren't doing anything fundamentally wrong.

Using public transport for a long journey after a positive test - that's a whole different ball game, and yes in those circumstances I'd either tell the person in advance if they hadn't already gone not to or I wouldn't report, or just report if after the event.

NS has now asked her to resign

[quote GrumblyMumblyisnotJumbly]@NotAnActualSheep quite the opposite I think it's a reminder of how unreasonable Cummings actions (see my post above) and Johnson's backing for him were.

Both Cummings and Ferrier went against both the spirit and letter of the guidance by leaving home at all after symptoms developed.
Ferrier must have known there was a chance she had Covid as she had one of the elusive tests.[/quote]
I can't believe you're making me defend DC on a public forum (I feel dirty now), but...DC didn't travel while he or his family were symptomatic (cough or fever) according to him. Yes he travelled to and from Durham, but that was "a reasonable excuse" in terms of the law, whether or not you think it's actually reasonable. Personally, I think the childcare thing was more justifiable than the return to work (which he could surely have done remotely from his bunker in Durham) but I understand people will disagree and given the kind of situation joystir suffered ( ) and the general feeling in the country at the time should have been enough for him to resign/ be sacked because of how it looked that he was disobeying the rules he had helped impose. The Barnard Castle Eye Test wasn't "reasonable" so was illegal, but even then he stayed away from others in his own car/ family group, so didn't put others greatly at risk. But again, that should have been enough for him to be sacked because it was actually against the law.

MF travelled with symptoms to London (OK, the symptoms had disappeared but without a negative test she should have self isolated for 10 days) and back again knowing she was positive. Not in a private car, but on a train, putting goodness knows how many people at risk. And then into the HofC. I can understand a certain degree of panic on the return journey...I've had worries about becoming sick when away from home and not being able to get back (though surely an alternative travel method wouldn't have been absolutely impossible to arrange for her). But going down, knowing she could and should perfectly well do her job from Scotland (sending her speech as a statement or similar) is the worst part for me. Lots of people worry that self isolating will make them look bad to their employer. Or their children staying off school because of a burst bubble or whatever will mean they can't work. But they do it because it is the right thing to do. It is exceedingly arrogant to think the rules and guidance don't apply to you and that your job puts you above other mere plebs. And that applies to DC and MF.

@HeyMacarona

NS has now asked her to resign

Shame that MF couldn't bring herself to do it herself, but not a surprise.

Does this mean a by election ?

I believe yes if she resigns as MP then there is a byelection. Labour were 2nd last time (having held it 2017-2019 I believe) and are already eyeing it up. She'd be welcome to run I think but it would have to be as an independent unless the snp has a change of heart - fair enough for local constituents to have a say on what happens to her.

@NotAnActualSheep DC wasn't symptomatic nor was his child but his wife WAS when they undertook the journey. So he put himself and their child into a small contained space with a symptomatic person to undertake a 5hour trip rather than his wife self-isolate at home which is what they told the rest of the public to do. Reasonable decision making?

What about the risk to the hospital workers and patients that his wife and child came into contact with in the NE when they chose to travel away from London (the epicentre of the disease at the time). If what they did was all above board why didn't she mention that they'd relocated in her published account of experiencing the virus, seems a pretty significant element to miss out?

But what I really object to is that Johnson told us that this was reasonable behaviour. When the public inundated their MPs about Cummings conduct Johnson and co high handedly told us to 'move on'. Not even an apology. As people missed births and deaths & some people spent weeks alone.

Ferrier's behaviour has been dangerous and Sturgeon has called on her to resign as she did when her chief medical officer set a poor example of behaviour that was damaging to the public health message.

Spot the difference?

How annoying @notevenat20, I hadn't read it and you're right that technically she took the test before the cut-off and it doesn't appear to apply to anyone who already has results.

If she chooses not to resign, I would expect that the HoC will want to trigger a by-election, there's no good reason for MPs not to make an example of her.

The fact she didn't break the law doesn't mean that what she did is acceptable of course. There are plenty of things that are both legal and disgraceful.

It's absolutely disgusting and the height of selfishness to knowingly travel when she displayed symptoms and then was tested positive. Who knows how many vulnerable people she may have come in contact with or people who could now carry it to other vulnerable people. I really don't have words for what I'd like to say about her. The minimum is that she should lose her job.

But according to this bbc article it seems she would have broken the rules in Scotland. Why would she have notified the local police if she hadn't broken any rules?

She will be fired. Its not a case of Bo Jo's mate. She's a disgrace though.

Dr Catherine Calderwood
Neil Ferguson
Dominic Cummings
Stanley Johnson
Margaret Ferrier
Jeremy Corbyn

None of them fined, but thousands have received fixed penalty notices which cannot realistically be challenged. The human rights implications have been discussed by the UK Parliament Human Rights Committee committees.parliament.uk/work/218/the-governments-response-to-covid19-human-rights-implications/.

One rule for them, another for everyone else, utter hypocrisy.

I do think we should all have some sympathy for a fellow human being. She didn't do anything evil. She just did something stupid. We all do stupid things every now and again.

I still think she should resign though.

I thought Dominic Cummings should resign.

This woman is even worse. She knowingly travelled on a long train journey after testing positive. My DH travelled on a London to Glasgow train this week and I have someone in my home who will almost certainly die if they get Covid. Luckily not the same train, but I'm incandescent with rage.

As an MP and a human being she's an utter disgrace. I think the fact that she hasn't had the decency to resign yet sums her up.

Notevenat20 If she's so stupid that she doesn't realise she shouldn't travel on public transport after testing positive - a mistake - then she shouldn't put herself up as the elected representative of the people in her constituency. Absolutely no one with any intelligence could have made that mistake.

Pp up thread:

“The public health advice is crystal clear. For the safety of others, anyone with coronavirus symptoms must self-isolate, in line with government guidance. They should not leave the house for any reason.”

So she did this very deliberately and knowing that she valued her convenience over the safety of others.

Should have said this was quoted by MF