It feels like people on MN are willing schools to close

[Marcellemouse]

Lots of threads being really negative about schools reopening. These have been largely started by teachers, the latest one being about a gagging order on the BBC. My 2 and every other DC I know are thriving on schools opening again. DS actually stands a chance of doing well and getting back on track with GCSES. DC are happy and animated again. Their teachers have been fantastic, I'm massively impressed. Friends of mine who are secondary teachers are positive and happy to be back teaching in school instead of home learning. I just get a different vibe in RL than on MN about schools. What's the reality?

I think it more that teachers want the same protection as other sectors. They could forsee issues and wanted a wsy to get back with minimal disruption as no one wants bubbles to constantly close.

Northernsoulgirl45
It's exactly that.

On here lots of teachers were discussing what needed to be considered to have a well planned and safe return to schools, but lots of posters decided that this warranted dozens of threads about lazy teachers who didn't want to go to work.

Now we're back fully, there's threads where parents are amazed/disappointed that school isn't the small classes and lots of distancing they had thought it would be.

Still the usual arguments are being made in some quarters that teachers want to shut all the schools so they can sit at home on full pay. I can't help thinking it must be dreadfully boring to be so invested having a go at a profession online that for months the answer to everything is 'but teachers want to close the schools / but lazy teachers / but teachers think they're special / but they want to close the schools /(head tilt) you seem awfully anxious, why don't you get another job / but why are all the teachers wanting to close the schools'

Teachers are not willing the schools to close. Teaching at school is easier than a full timetable of online lessons - wfh is boring

@PinotLovesMomma

The only option is to take sick leave, and this is subject to various HR reviews and measures The same as any other workplace then!

Ah right. I meant as opposed to having protection for being vulnerable, as when shielding was happening.

Other office based workplaces are governed by Health and Safety Laws which for some reason don't apply to schools. No masks. No social distancing. So not the same as other workplaces. No.

@SaltyAndFresh

I'm fucking scared. I have to walk across the school in a stream of hundreds of teenagers who won't wear masks, though they've been asked. Today I had to do this four times due to form being at the opposite side of the building, break duty, cover then having to work in an open area as I'm kicked out of my room at the end of the day, daily. Positive cases and hundreds out in my school too.

Yup I'm fucking scared too. Kids walking through bubbles, no masks/distancing, little to no evidence of hand washing, windows that don't open, teachers and kids that close windows..other things I can't say for fear of being outing too but RAs are worthless unless being adhered to...

@StaffAssociationRepresentative

Teachers are not willing the schools to close. Teaching at school is easier than a full timetable of online lessons - wfh is boring

Agree with this entirely.

Teachers are not willing the schools to close. Teaching at school is easier than a full timetable of online lessons - wfh is boring

How much line online teaching would you have to do? I guess it depends if you are primary or secondary.

live online....

How much line online teaching would you have to do? I guess it depends if you are primary or secondary

All of it. My full time table would shift to online. As it did the last time. I would be expected to be online and available to my students at the allocated time, even if my decision for the lesson was to send them away to do an activity or piece of work without me overseeing it. Why would you assume any differently?

All of it. My full time table would shift to online. As it did the last time. I would be expected to be online and available to my students at the allocated time, even if my decision for the lesson was to send them away to do an activity or piece of work without me overseeing it.

Thanks.

Why would you assume any differently?

A few reasons. Here are two.

1. If there are key workers still in school it's not clear how you could teach both at the same time.
2. For primaries it's not clear that young children will sit on a video call for 6 hours a day.

My full time table would shift to online. As it did the last time.

Also, in my DC's primary there was no online teaching at all last time. One of the reasons given was that it would be unfair on those children who couldn't access it.

I would like them to be back but with better resources for social distancing and hand washing etc. I would like us to follow the lead of European countries who put more resources into school re-opening, provided extra premises and teachers. I think we will look back and regret that we did not do this.

This. I'm in the position of having my DD experience 4 weeks of the whole school doing socially distanced, small class size learning in June/July. They got money for extra TAs from somewhere and managed it with using existing space such as school hall etc.

Not only did no child or adult get ill in 4 weeks (vs about half the class who've been off sick or isolating at different times in the last 3 weeks with no social distancing) but also the quality of educational experience was much better. DD was much happier and thrived. She's sad she can't have that again, especially knowing that she's at risk of catching coronavirus and given the discrepancy between what it's like in school and the fact she has to wear a mask for 5 min in a shop.

She's also already had to isolate once because we were waiting for her sister to get tested and said it was worse than lockdown (I would agree for me too). No work provided for her by the school during this period.

There is a difference between wanting schools to close (no-one wants that) and thinking that the way we're headed they will be closed at least part of the time for a large number of children. Also that the constant in-out-in again with no or poor home learning is worse than something consistent. The uncertainty will be hard for children and school staff alike.

The latest data on school closures does show that there are already many schools which are closed in part or full and the number is increasing week on week. Schools are the biggest source of outbreaks now. There are already many children not in school.
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/921561/Weekly_COVID19_Surveillance_Report_week_39_FINAL.pdf

It's a bit like seeing a truck about to hit someone. You don't want it to happen, but if the person insists on standing right in the middle of the road refusing to move as the truck is barrelling toward them, you can see what's going to happen however much you might want it not to .

The latest data on school closures does show that there are already many schools which are closed in part or full and the number is increasing week on week. Schools are the biggest source of outbreaks now.

The first sentence is right but there is no reason to believe the second one.

The problem is that in many schools the whole year is sent home if there is one case. So if 0.02% of children test positive 20% of secondary schools can have a year sent home (assuming on average 1000 children per secondary school).

It would be great to understand how many children test positive in the years that are sent home but I don't think we have that data yet.

It would be great to understand how many children test positive in the years that are sent home but I don't think we have that data yet.

As far as I know, no-one is studying this. PHE telling parents not to test unless with the 3 symptoms, so if children have different symptoms or asymptomatic will not be picked up. 60% of children who tested positive in Israeli outbreak were asymptomatic. There is also increasing evidence that symptoms in children often don't match the 3 for testing too. (e.g. gastrointestinal, tiredness etc)

And as for my second sentence - fig 20 of the PHE surveillance report. The grey bar is the single biggest bar

And as for my second sentence - fig 20 of the PHE surveillance report. The grey bar is the single biggest bar

The issue is that all children go to school. So it's not surprising that there will be lots of cases in schools. The question is whether they catch it in school.

There is also increasing evidence that symptoms in children often don't match the 3 for testing too. (e.g. gastrointestinal, tiredness etc)

I learned from More or Less that many children may also be immune.

It seems that statistically most children will only catch it mildly but that may well not be true of the people they live with, who they rely on to survive and flourish. I think the impact on coronavirus on children is more in terms of parents, teachers and family members ill, disabled or dead.

There are conflicting studies about whether children pass it on - from studies showing under 5s have hugely greater viral load than adults, to suggestions they don't transmit. Which is why it is utterly ridiculous that there seems to be no attempt to measure transmission within schools and out into the wider community.

The only reason I can think for not studying this is if they really think it is happening and want to bury bad news.

@IloveJKRowling

The only reason I can think for not studying this is if they really think it is happening and want to bury bad news.

That is a most excellent point! If there was a real belief that transmission in schools wasn't possible, then it would make a lot of sense to prove this, to reassure people (like me)

However, if the government strongly suspected that transmission might be possible, then this would be very inconvenient information, especially if they wanted to open schools without any additional expense (or complication or effort)

I hadn't thought of that.

Jk and Here

Imperial are studying it. Trouble is any conclusions from last term by PHE aren’t sufficient as different environment.

But here Imperial takes time though.

There are conflicting studies about whether children pass it on - from studies showing under 5s have hugely greater viral load than adults, to suggestions they don't transmit. Which is why it is utterly ridiculous that there seems to be no attempt to measure transmission within schools and out into the wider community.

The French govt thinks there is enough evidence that primary school children don't readily transmit to adults that they only send home the one poorly child if they test positive.

@notevenat20

There is also increasing evidence that symptoms in children often don't match the 3 for testing too. (e.g. gastrointestinal, tiredness etc)

I learned from More or Less that many children may also be immune.

@notevenat20

No children aren't immune . They may be a bit less susceptible especially at primary level but they are very susceptible at secondary level & just above,in fact this seems to be where there is currently a lot of growth.

See slide number5 Weekly individual test positivity % by age group
(5 to 21 years old)

There have been however some interesting comments from Karl Friston about "dark matter" factors to do with why some people seem much more likely to catch covid, I'd be interested in knowing more about that.

Marsha

Well thank goodness for Imperial. Though it's a shame it's in London, might have been better to fund Manchester University - or even better, both.

But still, whilst the actual, proper, scientific study will be the icing on the cake of evidence, given schools are back as normal, I think we'll know by then whether they transmit or not.

We'll either have lots of very ill teachers and both ECV and older parents. Or not.

What we are doing is essentially a big experiment.

If their gamble is wrong, the state is going to have to pick up a lot of children's lives.

@notevenat20

And as for my second sentence - fig 20 of the PHE surveillance report. The grey bar is the single biggest bar

The issue is that all children go to school. So it's not surprising that there will be lots of cases in schools. The question is whether they catch it in school.

And, of course, if they transmit it in schools - which is not the same question.

And, of course, if they transmit it in schools - which is not the same question.

That's a very good point.