Is government creating chaos on purpose?

[pontypridd]

So many mixed messages.

So much incompetence.

It’s an evolving situation so requires an evolving response. Lots of trial and error inevitably.

If you’re referring to the UK Government I don’t believe they are alone in this.

No - wtf would they do that?

There are mixed messages.

There is incompetence.

Do I think they are doing it on purpose? No.

On COVID-19, no probably not.

Although it does rather feel like they've used the pandemic as a distraction to channel public money towards their friends (in the form of untendered contracts awarded to certain companies for pandemic-related services) and to centralize power to ministers rather than parliament. That said, it looks as if the latter will be challenged in parliament on Wednesday.

No, they are responding to an evolving situation.

And what's confusing. WFH if you can. Hand hygiene, sd, wear a mask. Stay away from other people unless essential. Don't meet in large groups.

The less contact you have with others, the lower your chance of catching covid. It's really simple.

@pontypridd

So many mixed messages.

So much incompetence.

Yes to all this

But I don't think there is some conspiracy going on , I think they are just incompetent and to be honest don't really care (especially BJ, who wanted to sweep in Do Brexit and go...but has ended up, actually having to do hard stuff, like thinking)

I don’t think they’re doing it on purpose. I think they’re doing it because they’re incompetent.

I always favour cock-up rather than conspiracy, barring the tiny handful of cases where conspiracy can be proven beyond all reasonable doubt.

Are our governement a bunch of incompetent idiots, who furthermore will take any shortcuts they can if they think it makes their lives easier (even if this means ducking the hard decisions that could pay off in the long run) and in addition, will do various morally dubious things to feather their friends' nests?

Hell yes.

This on its own explains the shower of shite they're putting us under.

No need to reach for the additional motive of pre-meditated malice. (And in any case, even if they harboured malicious intent, evidence to date suggests they would not be able to put their evil plans into action because... idiocy and incompetence).

I have come to the conclusion that trying to enact political measures to deal with something like an infectious disease is only ever going to be minimally successful -- it's like trying to bottle fog.

Transmission is more complex than 'be near someone and you'll catch it' -- of course this can be a factor, but there are many others, some of which we understand and some of which we don't.

Furthermore, human nature is such that many people will ignore or break the rules, unless you have something akin to an authoritarian police state. (And even then...)

I also think a lot of people have an unrealistic expectation of how much safety they are owed by the government. It's not government's job to make our lives 100% safe. If it was, it would be illegal to drive a car, or be over a certain weight, or get pregnant, or go for a swim, or have an operation, or basically do anything that is part of being alive.

At one level and this is an open question to which I don't have an answer how much safety do we expect from government, and how much is down to decision-making, risk assessment and personal responsibility?

I'm no fan of this government, but I think they are trying sometimes successfully, sometimes not to strike a balance between legislating and giving out information that allows people to protect themselves up to a reasonable point, and allowing the functions of society to continue. This is always going to be a slightly wobbly tightrope, because you're pitting something blunt human reasoning and decision-making etc against an organism which is built to be highly efficient at doing what it is doing.

If anyone has doubts about the level of incompetence
This is an eye opener (unfortunately only goes up to Jun18th...would be interesting to see an updated version)
timeline-of-failure.com

@NastyBlouse

I have come to the conclusion that trying to enact political measures to deal with something like an infectious disease is only ever going to be minimally successful -- it's like trying to bottle fog.

Transmission is more complex than 'be near someone and you'll catch it' -- of course this can be a factor, but there are many others, some of which we understand and some of which we don't.

Furthermore, human nature is such that many people will ignore or break the rules, unless you have something akin to an authoritarian police state. (And even then...)

I also think a lot of people have an unrealistic expectation of how much safety they are owed by the government. It's not government's job to make our lives 100% safe. If it was, it would be illegal to drive a car, or be over a certain weight, or get pregnant, or go for a swim, or have an operation, or basically do anything that is part of being alive.

At one level and this is an open question to which I don't have an answer how much safety do we expect from government, and how much is down to decision-making, risk assessment and personal responsibility?

I'm no fan of this government, but I think they are trying sometimes successfully, sometimes not to strike a balance between legislating and giving out information that allows people to protect themselves up to a reasonable point, and allowing the functions of society to continue. This is always going to be a slightly wobbly tightrope, because you're pitting something blunt human reasoning and decision-making etc against an organism which is built to be highly efficient at doing what it is doing.

Well said, especially the first line. Unfortunately a virus is one of those things were us humans can't do much about, we're not gods.

A virus is gonna spread whether you like it or not and your govt cannot prevent your deaths. It's actually quite scary how many people have convinced themselves it can in the last few months.

YABU

It's just to flatten the curve.
It's just 6 feet.
It's just a mask.
It's just non-essential businesses.
It's just 3 weeks.
It's just to keep the hospitals from being overwhelmed.
It's just restaurants and pubs.
It's just until the numbers of cases are reduced.
It's just a few months.
It's just a little inflation.
It's just Easter.
It's just until we get a vaccine.
It's just to let others know you're safe to be around.
It's just a blood test.
It's just a few job losses.
It's just a little microchip.
It's just an app for your phone.
It's just so you can leave your home.
It's just Christmas.
It's just so you can travel.
It's just so you can vote.
It's just groups larger than 6.
It's just so you can enter a grocery store.
It's just after 10pm.
It's just another 6 months.

It's just our liberty, being taken away, piece by piece.

If you think these "lockdowns" and restrictions are just about a virus, you just haven't been paying attention.

Bupkis
Your source is incorrect right at the start;

“The committee–which includes ministers, intelligence chiefs and military generals–gathers at moments of great peril such as terrorist attacks, natural disasters and other threats to the nation and is normally chaired by the prime minister.” (Sunday Times)

The prime minister wasn't expected to chair the early COBRA meetings for a pandemic;

Extract from the Independent review into the response to the 2009 swine flu pandemic:

"The committee, and the structures that support it (frequently referred to as COBRA in the media), are the UK government’s dedicated crisis management mechanism. While the Home Secretary is the default chair, and the Prime Minister may chair in the most serious of crises, the committee is usually chaired by the lead minister for the type of emergency in question. In the event of an influenza pandemic, the committee would therefore normally be chaired by the Secretary of State for Health."

The Exercise Cygnus report [Tier One Command Post Exercise Pandemic Influenza 2016];
"The exercise activity was based around four simulated COBR meetings" - chaired by the Secretary of State for Health and the Minister for the Cabinet Office."

Why would they do that and how would they know which measures wouldn't work?

Your suggestion assumes a deliberate strategy to let tens of thousands of citizens die, do you serioulsy think any UK government would do that?

If you think these "lockdowns" and restrictions are just about a virus, you just haven't been paying attention.

To what end?

I don't think the government is competent enough for a conspiracy, and too greedy to take an economic hit that impacts their donors and wealthy friend. If it wasn't for that, I'd say a virus that disproportionately kills the poor, elderly, disabled and BAME sounds like a Tory dream come true.

I think they are just incompetent and to be honest don't really care (especially BJ, who wanted to sweep in Do Brexit and go...but has ended up, actually having to do hard stuff, like thinking)
when you say incompetent do you mean they really don't have the skills or ability to deal with this, or is it that they are lazy and don't care enough to put in the right amount of effort?
If they are lazy and don't care enough, isn't that the same as deliberate neglect, they know how important this is they know what they're supposed to do but they just....don't bother to do it properly?

its just a microchip

And out come the loonies

@MephistophelesApprentice

I don't think the government is competent enough for a conspiracy, and too greedy to take an economic hit that impacts their donors and wealthy friend. If it wasn't for that, I'd say a virus that disproportionately kills the poor, elderly, disabled and BAME sounds like a Tory dream come true.

Aren't the elderly their core vote? And most of their membership?

Great Post nasty

Unfortunately 'do this and you won't catch it' is going to be completely ineffective, as we've already been told earlier in the summer that if we are under 50 and have no health conditions catching it gives us no greater risk of dying/being severely ill than anything else does (understand not everyone got the memo on that one 🙄).

Changing our entire lifestyle for 'the greater good' was never going to work was it? Especially when none of it works anyway.

@NastyBlouse

To an extent, it's like bottling fog - but that doesn't explain the massive differences between different countries. I've screen grabbed a couple of shots (total cumulative deaths per million, weekly average new cases) for CDC data from here:
91-divoc.com/pages/covid-visualization/?fbclid=IwAR30qEvzq11I78qY5WyPOXUOtjUmZdzQL3d-k9gtDLrG6SMyl5EwD0lWmmU (US CDC data drawn from official government sources across the world).

The reason I've highlighted Germany and the UK is that they're similar politically (both liberal democracies, not authoritarian), culturally (both Western Europe), both relatively wealthy countries, both with similar large cities and similar very interconnected international transport hubs.

The UK is doing much, much worse than Germany. First wave - reached a similar peak in terms of number of new cases per day, but Germany brought the peak down much, much quicker. Second wave - clearly happening in the UK, isn't happening in Germany. Cumulative deaths - 6 times worse in the UK than Germany.

So clearly even within a liberal democracy rather than an authoritarian regime, it is possible to have very different outcomes. So it's a perfectly reasonable question to pose: What are our politicians doing wrong?

(As for the consipiracy theory nuts - I offer you this:
www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/07/coronavirus-deadlier-than-many-believed-infection-fatality-rate-cvd/

Seasonal flu - case fatality rate of between 1 and 10 per 100,000 of population.

Covid - case fatality rate of between 500 and 1000 per 100,000 of population.

Do consider taking the tin-foil hat off your head and re-purpose it as a face mask instead - it'll probably do you more good that way.)

This looks kike chaos by incompetence. "Chaos by purpose" indicates some form of thought about the end goal and I have yet to see that from Johnson, aside from a lust for power.

Ask me again in 6 months, after the end of Brexit transition...

@TheABC

This looks kike chaos by incompetence. "Chaos by purpose" indicates some form of thought about the end goal and I have yet to see that from Johnson, aside from a lust for power.

Ask me again in 6 months, after the end of Brexit transition...

I think this is Chaos by deliberate incompetence, which is akin to to wilful blindness and closely related to chaos on purpose

Yes, the comparison with Germany is unedifying. Perhaps they are less freedom loving than us doughty Brits...
I think our worldbeating shitshow is the consequence of govt incompetence (not surprising since only nodding dogs were appointed to the Cabinet) plus corruption of the jobs for the boys type (Serco/Dido/PPE contracts etc etc). But I also think its reasonably clear that the govt are using the pandemic as an opportunity for a power grab/attack on the rule of law, which is worrying.