Tracking University Covid Outbreaks

[TheeStallion]

University of Glasgow: 124 positives - 600 self isolating students www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54268780

Abertay University (Dundee): 1 student positive - 500 told to isolate

Oxford Brookes: 30 positives

Uni of Liverpool: 87 positives of staff and students

St Andrews: 4 positive, 40 isolating

Edinburgh Napier: 11 positive

Kent: 2 positive

Newcastle: 30 positive, 22 students, 8 staff

Swansea: 11 students

Cases reported at:

De Montfort (Leicester)
UWE (Bristol)
Aberdeen
Manchester Metropolitan
Stirling
Bath
Warwick
Queen Margaret (Edinburgh)
Queen Mary (London)

@Figmentofmyimagination you are absolutely spot on. They have been treated appallingly. It was so obvious this would happen, it is all about the money.
And it wouldn’t have taken much imagination to organise alternative activities! My DS is in London, tempted to tell him to get on the train and come home!

I think unfortunately what a lot of people fail to grasp here (this is outside of government decisions around guidance and rules for universities come back) is that if most universities have to give discounts of fees and/or accommodation, they will go under entirely. And there will be no courses at all. So although its sounds simple to demand money back, the reality is not as easy as that.

I work in the sector, and family members work at other universities so I know where I work isn't the only one, and we are doing our best. It's a shitstorm for the universities too as well as the students.

Well yes, sadly university's might go under but do you have the same mindset towards other businesses? Eg, if you signed a contract for a group tour abroad, but this was changed to a virtual toor on zoom would you want some money bank? Or would you accept that the company would go under if too many people demanded a refund and so not bother?

@user1471588124

Well yes, sadly university's might go under but do you have the same mindset towards other businesses? Eg, if you signed a contract for a group tour abroad, but this was changed to a virtual toor on zoom would you want some money bank? Or would you accept that the company would go under if too many people demanded a refund and so not bother?

There's a bit of a difference between a company that provides coach tours and an institution that trains doctors, nurses, teachers, social workers, engineers, research scientists and countless other professionals. There's also a difference between some people missing out on a holiday and tens of thousands of young people not being able to finish or get onto degree courses in the future. It's depressing to see that people consider those situations to be analogous, but not entirely surprising considering how we've commoditised education in this country.

Thats my whole point. We have made higher education a commodity in this country, and its been happening for years. Young people pay a fortune and sign a contract in expectation of in person teaching. I think its very wrong the way the entire higher education is set up but it is simply not fair to treat students like pound signs and then complain when they view their degree as something that can be bought. We have taught them that.

And its not a few people unable to go on holiday is it. Its all the livelihoods of the people working in that business and all the ancillary businesses alongside. They suffer greatly when people refuse to pay for cancelled or virtual holidays, but there is no suggestion that people shouldnt do that. Yet students, at the very start of adult life are supposed to be happy to be isolated in a flat with strangers, everything online, no chance of a job or meeting others.

Your not going ro get any doctors or teachers graduating at all when uni is such a bleak prospect. The drop out rate this year will be enormous.

Where was this @Figmentofmyimagination? I have 2x dn at uni and in both cases it was made really clear what would be happening wrt lectures, practicals, team sports (they are both studying sports science) etc.

Both decided to go in any case and are having a great time, despite the restrictions.

Have other countries had universities go back?

Yes, big outbreaks at some campus-type colleges in France including my son's engineering school - by the second week fo September they had over 100 cases!

The students are expected to isolate for 7 days if they are positive or contacts of positive cases but there is no draconian enforcement like in Scotland. Teaching has gone on-line for 2 weeks but tbh it doesn't seem like the infections happened in class where they are all masked anyway. The outbreak seems to have come to a halt now (but some first year classes must have got close to herd immunity ).

My daughter is at a large Paris university where apparently case numbers are similar to or even a bit lower than in the community (though tbh the university administration is a bit crap so I don't expect they really know!). There is no "campus" as such and most of the students live in private accommodation. Classes are 100% in person with obligatory mask wearing. It feels quite unsafe but the students are mostly being very careful - two weeks into term now and DD says there are not yet any signs of clusters in her classes.

@user1471588124

Well yes, sadly university's might go under but do you have the same mindset towards other businesses? Eg, if you signed a contract for a group tour abroad, but this was changed to a virtual toor on zoom would you want some money bank? Or would you accept that the company would go under if too many people demanded a refund and so not bother?

I don't think the comparison is the same but there are lots of businesses where that rule doesn't apply. Football clubs is an example, people are stay paying for season tickets they can't use because if they don't the clubs won't exist anymore.

If a university goes under, so does the teaching, the accommodation etc and there won't be any refunds either. Not to mention mass redundancies. Nobody benefits if that happens.

There is a random stay in one of my sentences that should be a still. Whoops.

including my son's engineering school - by the second week fo September they had over 100 cases!

FWIW if that's the one I think it is then as you say it seems that the spread didn't happen in class, I gather from somebody in the know at the Institute there that despite the warnings it does seem the early returners to the campus seem to have very much ignored the warnings about behaviour in the bars and clubs of the local city.

despite the warnings it does seem the early returners to the campus seem to have very much ignored the warnings about behaviour in the bars and clubs of the local city.

Some of the initial cases were probably from socialising in town but IMO a fair bit of spread happened on campus, at mealtimes, both in student accommodation but also in all probability in the university restaurant.

Like in the UK, there have been a lot of (IMO pretty disgusting) attempts to blame poor preparedness and crisis management on teenagers.

Universities with more than one case:

Manchester Met: 127
Uni of Glasgow: 124
Edinburgh Napier: 119
Uni of Liverpool: 108
Newcastle/Northumbria: 62 (both unis combined)
Oxford Brookes: 30
Swansea: 21
Portsmouth: 14
Sunderland: 11
St Andrews: 7
Leeds: 6
Coventry: 5
De Montfort: 4
UWE: 3
Abertay: 3
Kent: 2

It should be noted that this relies on institutions being up front with their outbreaks and cases. Additionally different Unis have different testing policies.

I suspect a number of other institutions would be on this list if either institutions were upfront or testing more widespread.

Say an institution takes in 5000 students. Statistically at least 10 will have had coronavirus. This is based on Government estimates that 1 in 500 have Covid right now. Of course for 18-24 year olds that figure is higher.

It is likely COVID is present on every major uni campus right now.

@Mistgri

Some of the initial cases were probably from socialising in town but IMO a fair bit of spread happened on campus, at mealtimes, both in student accommodation but also in all probability in the university restaurant.

If we have indeed ended up specifically discussing the INSA Toulouse outbreak then for completeness I know for certain there was certainly some concern expressed by some of faculty members about student behaviour off campus in the days before the MSM got their teeth into the story.

It was pretty obvious the warnings about the French version of "SD" that were issued in late August/early September were being comprehensively ignored by many (no surprise there..), hence the Director's very thinly disguised anger at what he described to the media as "des comportements irresponsables".

TBF to INSA and the French system I'm sure it's a story that can be repeated across much of Europe and the UK....

Rangueil - for sure there was socialising - there was an "integration week" organised by the university!

My opinion is that a lot of French higher ed appears to be run by people who are privately lockdown sceptics and who are willing to let clusters occur as long as there is a handy scapegoat to take the blame. There is no plan at all for on-line teaching at my daughter's university.

I am personally somewhat in favour of maintaining in-person teaching as long as it can be done safely (and I think it can - but it very much depends on the campus & the facilities and resources available) - but universities which choose to provide in-person tuition also need to take responsibility for the consequences and have a plan for when shit happens.

It should be noted that this relies on institutions being up front with their outbreaks and cases.

The figures are not accurate. Most of them are just what the press is reporting, and are rather higher in reality. My university is reported to have a tiny number, in reality it’s 20 times higher, and the majority of the students have yet to arrive for the start of term. DH’s university has a number consistent with some of the highest being reported, but the press are saying it’s a quarter of that number.

It also relies on students sharing their private medical data with their university. Universities dont have an automatic right to their test results.

Sorry, I should have mentioned that both our universities have their own testing services. But they are not going public with the results.

Rangueil - for sure there was socialising - there was an "integration week" organised by the university!

Given my (changed for this thread as hint) username you won't be surprised I've heard a slightly less straightforward version of events as to what was going on at INSA over that particular week and more importantly who exactly was organising some of the events, both on and off campus.

Of course fundamentally now that's water under the bridge, the Institute is where it is..I know the faculty members there have been working very hard since the spring and through the summer on how to discharge their responsibilities with regarding on-line tuition should a move to 100% on-line be needed..yes, there was and is a plan of sorts..

I'd better close there because it's a small world and if I say much more on this it's potentially outing - I will however finish by saying I wish your son good luck on his course.

I don't understand what the plan / way forward is - are these poor students going to end up doing 14 days repeatedly through the year?

i already read about one international student who had did a 14 day stint to start with then straight into another one due to another case. How much of this can they take?

And, many of them were asked to sign up and sign accommodation agreements before being told of the details. It's very unfair.

University of Sheffield: 6 positive cases

I'd heard two different accounts about Rootes at Warwick, one of one positive student, and the other of 4. The extent of lockdown of that hall varies too (it's an older, rather unlovely one, with a persistent party-hard reputation)

Glasgow Caledonian also seems to have case in their accommodation.

It's really difficult and I feel for the students who are having to start or continue their degrees under these circumstances.

The DfE itself has stated that unis must offer a blend of online and in-person teaching (unless social distancing can't be maintained, or there's a local outbreak). Unis therefore haven't been allowed to offer that "Just live at home and you can do your entire degree online" option on their own accord.

I work in the sector and my colleagues and I are all at the point of nervous breakdowns from working nonstop over the past few months to try and make campuses "covid-secure" and get as much teaching and other provision as possible moved online. I'm not saying that in a bid for sympathy, just hoping that parents and students can understand that unis have been working very, very hard to try and make this work for the students. All without having been given financial assistance from the government to do so.

It's shit but I don't know what the alternatives are. Not go to uni, go straight into the (even more shit) job market? Unis refund part of fees, then can't pay their own bills and go bust, those students are left high and dry?

It's not business as usual for anyone in any sector right now. Everyone is having to make sacrifices and settle for less than they would like. There are a lot of people working very hard to try and make it as decent as possible for students.....I really hope the majority of students will still be able to learn and grow and gain something of value despite the circumstances. And I wish the DfE and the private accommodation sector would see the needs of students as something worth supporting in a meaningful way.

@CousinKrispy

It's really difficult and I feel for the students who are having to start or continue their degrees under these circumstances.

The DfE itself has stated that unis must offer a blend of online and in-person teaching (unless social distancing can't be maintained, or there's a local outbreak). Unis therefore haven't been allowed to offer that "Just live at home and you can do your entire degree online" option on their own accord.

I work in the sector and my colleagues and I are all at the point of nervous breakdowns from working nonstop over the past few months to try and make campuses "covid-secure" and get as much teaching and other provision as possible moved online. I'm not saying that in a bid for sympathy, just hoping that parents and students can understand that unis have been working very, very hard to try and make this work for the students. All without having been given financial assistance from the government to do so.

It's shit but I don't know what the alternatives are. Not go to uni, go straight into the (even more shit) job market? Unis refund part of fees, then can't pay their own bills and go bust, those students are left high and dry?

It's not business as usual for anyone in any sector right now. Everyone is having to make sacrifices and settle for less than they would like. There are a lot of people working very hard to try and make it as decent as possible for students.....I really hope the majority of students will still be able to learn and grow and gain something of value despite the circumstances. And I wish the DfE and the private accommodation sector would see the needs of students as something worth supporting in a meaningful way.

Absolutely this! It's also worth pointing out that the DfE guidance for HE came out the day before our first years moved in on campus. As we had followed the main government guidance we were pretty much ready anyway but that is nowhere near the level of support and guidance required and they should have been offering (and continuing to offer) far more than they have.

The lack of support from central government has been shocking but unsurprising. This is the party that has wanted the sector to contract for the better part of the last decade.