We were doing ok until we opened all the schools....

[Bbq1]

After lockdown was lifted pre September and pubs, restaurants etc were opened we seemed to have a handle on Covid with cases, hospital admissions and deaths all declining fairly steadily. Since we released millions of school aged children and thousands of teachers etc back into the classroom- boom, cases and consequently deaths, are now growing very rapidly again. It didn't take a rocket scientist to work out that this would happen. I work in a school and I have a 15 year old starting his gcse's so I 100% don't want the schools to close but surely there must be a more workable solution? Couldn't schools be one week, one week off for different bubbles or alternate days? Nobody wants schools to shut but surely in the long term if we don't get something safer in place and just continue sending kids and adults in day after day, then eventually they will close again?

But that 'containment' isnt exactly appropriate for vulnerable teacher/parents/kids is it. You can go home now youve got it. Yes it might prevent it being all 30.
Those 1000 cases are likely linked to at least another 1000. And dont worry your other child can still attend...
Would be interesting to see with schools with multiple classes if that's siblings.

I've just been reading the NHS thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/4026357-nhsers-how-are-we-doing-feeling-calm-before-the-storm

Several nurses thinking of leaving because of how awful it was last time and not wanting to have to do this again. I personally know one nurse who has left because of it. Other posters saying some staff off sick with stress. We already had a shortage of nurses in the first place before covid.

If coronavirus gets out of control (and with no meaningful measures to control it in schools I can't see how that won't happen), our NHS will be under such pressure that children who are ill or have accidents may not be able to access timely care.

It's not just about coronavirus, it's about what massive numbers of coronavirus ill does to the rest of society and particularly healthcare.

Whitty made this point.

@Jux

I think it would have been more sensible to reopen educational establishments, but keep everything else closed as far as possible. Work from home, etc.

Once schools, Unis etc are running smoothly and we could see what effect that was having on the figures, then look at reopening other things. I would have expected leisure activities to be one of hte last things to restart (and my dh is a musician and has NO WORK AT ALL and won't for the foreseeable, so as a family that would be awful for us).

Though truthfully I would have far rather seen the Gov thinking outside the box and considering alternative ways to rebuild society from the bottom up, perfect opportunity to change things radically. They can't work worse than they were before COVID really can they?

I suppose most parents would agree with this and be quite happy to forego entertainment or leisure activities if it ensured schools stayed open, but unfortunately there's a significant amount of adults that have no children at all who don't give a stuff if schools are open or closed or safe or unsafe as it doesn't affect them. They may argue that they are being denied access to these establishments for reasons that don't really benefit them. Of course this is all hypothetical as schools don't make money for the economy like leisure and hospitality venues do so its unlikely to ever be an issue.

I know about healthcare worker stress. There are several factors: massive widespread understaffing where staff levels are at best only adequate if no-one is ill or on holiday, staff are very often not replaced when they leave so there is even more understaffing leading to the remaining staff being swamped; poor pay (and the clapping by the 50% of the population that voted for the Tories actually really pissed off nurses far more than making them feel appreciated), inadequate PPE (when dealing at close quarters with patients who are unwell/may have Covid-19 but the test will take hours/do have Covid-19 so here nurse have a plastic pinny and the same type of mask that the public are wearing to Asda). Plus they likely got Covid-19 in the first wave due to inadequate protection by their employer and still feel the effects. Or their colleague(s) died from Covid-19 caught at work.
What the nurses are doing and have done is incomparable and it is insulting to bring them into it.

And of course many nurses dealing with the sick and dying and risking their own lives may also have thought 'I didn't sign up for this' but still got on with it.

"I’m pleased our school has issued rules on masks, no chatting, no hanging around, no indoor play dates."

How are the school enforcing this? I work at a school, we can't get parents to park sensibly in the surrounding streets. If a parent wants to do what is inside the rules, or something outside them, how are we supposed to know and what could we do? Report what would probably be hearsay to the police?

Its not schools per say. Well not just yet i England anyway.
Scotland it could be.
At the end if the day reopening physical schools means mass gatherings of epic proportions.

I tried googling total number senior age kids year 7 to 13 in uk so all 4 uk nations.
Its at least 2.8 million plus teaching and support staff.
A great majority of them are reliant on public transport.
My child's senior school is city centre many take train or buses.
There are other schools in the area that use same buses.
The biggest one has sent all year 11 home because they haf a child test postive with none of the 3 symptoms.
We south west so low r rate supposedly but least 15 schools effected most senior so massive bubbles sent home.
Few primaries different ends of the city.
I imagine in areas of local lockdown i think last read 8000 children in greater Manchester off.

Add to fact schools not socially distancing and no masks makes it risky for staff and kids.
Some staff criss bubbling.
Kids mive around at secondary.

Dfe said was safe kids dont easily get or transmit it.
Then Matthew Hancock says they do.
They say testing a priority.
Teachers no 5 pupils no priority at all.
The shit will hit the fan when nhs staff cant work because they stuck with no childcare and told self isolate 14days.
When schools were open for keyworkers and vunerable they were in small bubbles of 15 2 metres apart there were very few outbreaks in june government said.

But lets not forget summer they encouraged families go abroad.
They encouraged them all go out.
Heard few parents say they given up not meeting people as when school starts they see each other again.

Opening up unis wuth students crossing all over uk and flying in international students baffles me that will nake situation worse 2 universities scotland self isolating.
We shouldent have opened up everything.
Whitty said we were at absolute capacity if schools safely open. in August then we opened up casinos softplay football.bowling.

Last i heard on news

Carehomes account 36% transmissions
Education sector 23%
Hospitality pubs and restaurants less than 5% so no wonder that industry upset and confused.
The 10pm curfew wont work and i dont beleive pubs are to blame.
Went to 3 pubs and 1 restaurant all sunner very well planned spaced out i felt safer there than the supermarkets who have become negligent last 6 weeks .
If course theres good and bad pubs.
I think the majority near me done fab job.

We should do blended learning.
Hold everyone back a academic year then start new academic year in March and redesign the academic year and calender. This years year elevn have unequal education if they had more time off up north than schools in the south.

@3asAbird
Education sector accounted for 20% the last I heard, obviously on an upward trend. Can easily see it overtaking the care sector before too long.

Cases rising a largely in Care Homes and due to those returning from abroad not self isolating and going on pub crawls

@MorvaanReed

"I’m pleased our school has issued rules on masks, no chatting, no hanging around, no indoor play dates."

How are the school enforcing this? I work at a school, we can't get parents to park sensibly in the surrounding streets. If a parent wants to do what is inside the rules, or something outside them, how are we supposed to know and what could we do? Report what would probably be hearsay to the police?

As far as I can tell it is not enforced but people are doing it. I saw your question pre pick up so had a look and over 95% wearing a mask etc. As for indoor play dates I can’t be sure but the general vibe is people want to do the right thing.

The information / visuals came from the PTA after some parents asked what they could do to help keep staff safer. All this type of conversation on the class WhatsApp.

So from parent upwards, rather than school down.

schools don't make money for the economy
people without children don't give a stuff about them being educated

They do, and they should. The children we're educating now are the ones that will help the economy grown in the future, and pay the taxes to support those who do not have children. In a world where someone living in China can do your job as well as you can, you can bet your bottom dollar that if our children fall behind, there will be millions from other countries ready to step in.

WHO reports that schools do not seem to play a significant feature in transmission (although data is limited). However, isn't it also clear that some situations are worth the risk of increased transmission if the service provided is vital, so it becomes a debate of whether you consider education to be vital or optional.

The other factor to consider is that it has been possible to socialise and eat out (or drink out) outside for most of the last 4 months, so perhaps coming indoors is a bigger factor than schools. (Which may explain why places like California and Florida have higher infection rates than northern states, as they're so damn hot in the summer, residents spend most of their time inside).

The final factor to consider is that, because of the schools' policy on testing (any cough or temp requires a test, and a positive case will probably lead to a further 30 people getting tests) means that they're picking up many more cases than we were in July. I didn't take my kids' temperatures once from March to August, so maybe they've had it, but because their cases were so mild, it wouldn't have picked up. There isn't a chance of that now - if they have it, they're almost certainly going to get "caught" in the testing.

Cases in n somerset schools

4 weston
3 nailsea
1 churchill
Around 47 cases this week
If all had been this week thats 17%

WHO reports that schools do not seem to play a significant feature in transmission

Yeah but most countries have opened schools in a less mental way.

@IloveJKRowling

I agree that children need to be in school, it isn't good for their mental health or education not to be, parents need to work and the economy needs to be supported. So there's the conundrum. We can't shut the country down forever and a vaccine is some way off...

But there literally are so many other things that constitute safer opening and in this country we're ignoring it all which is MUCH more likely to result in closed school eventually (and already is for many students isolating with lack of test).

Italy, Spain, many states in the US, Korea - we have a load of different models and lots of scientific papers about it. Advice from Unicef, advice from the WHO. This is what they all say safer school reopening looks like:

• smaller class sizes (no more than 15) - you can achieve this by using community spaces as Italy has done and as my daughter's primary could do if the DfE hadn't flat out blocked using the village hall (offered to use for free) and refused to support the cost of extra TAs
• social distancing (obviously goes with smaller class sizes)
• masks where social distancing of 2m not possible
• if the above not possible: half the school in half time, rest home learning (obviously school open full time only for key workers / vulnerable kids). SURELY that would be better than a lockdown which is where we're headed?

As *@IloveJKRowling* points out re what schools are doing in Italy. The Government should be doing the same. It's an absolute disgrace they aren't.

If the school kids are going to be doing the Hokey Cokey with their education (in/out/in/out) then the only reasonable solution is for everyone to repeat their year.
So it does mean that the new reception classes next September are going to have double numbers & will do until that cohort reach Y11 - 13.
Though it will only be that one year.

@TrustTheGeneGenie if you sincerely believe all of that, then there's no helping you. That's appalling.

Tracey beaker yes i feel that's solution.
Even if government have to deliver portacabin and have reception 1 and reception 2. Senior schools same i guess 2 year 7. Year 13 and 11 moved on but for the rest of the year groups its worth consideration.

I question what they level education they getting right now.
If they all return at widely diffrent levels and schools focussed on recovery catch up curriculum.
Repeat years starting in March and do blended learning between now and march doing catchup.
My year 10 says zero social distancing and kids hugging.
With some year groups in then out they all geting different education.
In areas high community transmission its no surprise that won't translate to high school transmission.
Even areas low covid schools are closing another 3 this week in Bristol.
North somerset seems to have had another rise.

For those that are suggesting repeating a year, do you mean going restarting the year they’re in now in March or going back to the year they were in last year? Because DS has already started year 7, would you expect him to go back to primary school? And my nephew has already started reception, should he go back to nursery?? That’s madness!

Erm, the rise in cases are mainly people between 20 and 30, somehow don't think it is the schools to blame for that.

Totally agree BBQ1!

Lets just blame the kids shall we? Nothing at all to do with packed pubs, restaurants and bars over the summer, it’s easier to blame the kids and deny them an education. Happy now?

I don’t think it was kids that opened the schools in unsafe conditions.

Repeating the year they are in now.
Only if the rest of this academic year is a write off.
So next September LadyCatStark your DS would still be a Y7.
Your DN would still be a reception but there would also be another reception cohort running along side them.
Or maybe another Y1 cohort, so your DN would still move up to a Y1 but there would also be a Y1 repeat.
It would mean for either Reception or Y1 (which ever way is done) that it has double the pupils for that year & then the following years for that cohort & that cohort only.

Obviously this depends if the rest of the academic year is a complete write off.

So the fact that we are doing hundreds more testing has nothing to do with it?

So you want the country to go bankrupt do you. I wonder how you would feel not getting furlough. Just get on with it. Thousands died if the flu but we never shut the country down.

No one is saying they shouldn't have an education but it could be better organised. My child's of 30 could be split in half. Half attend mornings, half attend afternoons. Obviously this won't suit everybody however focus could therefore be on Literacy, Maths and Science or an additional language. It would have been better to start carefully that head in full force. I think children need to be at school but slowly and surely. In other countries children are seen a superspreaders. We are absolutely crazy to think children can't catch it.