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Is it time we learned to live with Covid? BBC article today

285 replies

PennyDreadfuI · 21/09/2020 08:06

From the BBC

I'm beginning to think that it might be (and I'm higher risk). It's here to stay, after all, and lockdowns every few months cannot go on indefinitely. All the money spent on lockdown measures could perhaps be ploughed into the NHS to pay for staff/hospitals to provide care for those who need it when they become ill (and to ease the backlog the last lockdown created).

OP posts:
fishywaters · 21/09/2020 16:13

For those of you criticising the government constantly what would you do differently right now? I agree mistakes have been made in the past and I did not vote for this current government but we are where we are, the most vulnerable in society are going to be hardest hit by this virus (whether directly or indirectly), in pretty much all circumstances. There is no magic money tree or anything to currently make the virus go away. It is a horrible situation for most people and for those relying on public services and without backup savings it is going to be even worse. The lack of cancer care and mental health is shocking but if people make enough noise about it perhaps those services can be prioritised by government? I personally am hoping for some sort of specialist Covid hospitals/centres but who knows if they will manage to organise enough staff for that and still keep other services running properly. I suspect it will be down to post code lottery as usual.

herecomesthsun · 21/09/2020 16:17

@RainbowParadise We have some fantastic teachers but who are extremely vulnerable or have been shielding.

It seems very likely that some of these teachers will get ill, or die, or go into early retirement, or change career, if they face being made ill in the workplace.

So we need to watch this spot, because we don't have enough good teachers.

Of course, if the virus magically dies out,or a superduper vaccine comes on line in the next month or 2, and takes away all the risk, then that would be great. But that might not happen.

Alternatively, if the options are to lose a load of excellent teachers in various ways, because they are at risk, or to modify classrooms, so they are safe, then we probably need to modify classrooms.

Likewise, consulting rooms for doctors and other health professionals. For example, we might need to re-design them so that there is a transparent but solid screen between doctor and patient, and, on each side, there is a way of ventilating the room through to the outside. If we are to live with this long term.

Otherwise, the HCPs may well simply take their early retirement in large numbers,or change career, rather than become unwell (especially if this worsens with repeated exposure).

So yes, we would need to modify these things in the medium to long term, if we are to live with this.

Likewise, we might need to revisit how we do things in supermarkets and other shops,more than we have done already.

And all this would have multiple implications as well for safety from other viruses and bacteria that could cause pandemics.

RainbowParadise · 21/09/2020 16:18

@fishywaters

For those of you criticising the government constantly what would you do differently right now? I agree mistakes have been made in the past and I did not vote for this current government but we are where we are, the most vulnerable in society are going to be hardest hit by this virus (whether directly or indirectly), in pretty much all circumstances. There is no magic money tree or anything to currently make the virus go away. It is a horrible situation for most people and for those relying on public services and without backup savings it is going to be even worse. The lack of cancer care and mental health is shocking but if people make enough noise about it perhaps those services can be prioritised by government? I personally am hoping for some sort of specialist Covid hospitals/centres but who knows if they will manage to organise enough staff for that and still keep other services running properly. I suspect it will be down to post code lottery as usual.
The point is they fucked up from the beginning, they could see what was happening in China, in Italy, and Spain, but that fucking idiot clown was still shaking hands and proudly telling everyone about it, allowing Cheltenham to go ahead, allowing the Atletico Madrid fans to arrive in Liverpool. Had he, I don't know, paid attention maybe? Acted like a grown up? Listened to sensible people? You know, maybe did his job rather than focus on his next super injunction, maybe things might not have got quite so bad.
annabel85 · 21/09/2020 16:23

Not bothered about the next 6 months. I'd written winter off anyway and will be staying at home for the most part.

It's the idea of living like this for years that I do find a bit unpalatable. I'm not a massively social person but most things I enjoy doing are still off limits even without more restrictions.

expectingnumber3 · 21/09/2020 16:23

@HoldingTight

PennyDreadful, the problem is that the lack of availability of the services you mention will become considerably worse if we allow Covid to take off and swamp our health services. The tightening of restrictions will affect our social lives and are necessary to protect the services you mention. This is what learning to live with the virus looks like.
You have answered my question there. My family are acceptable collateral damage in learning to live with the virus. Thanks.
herecomesthsun · 21/09/2020 16:23

Re new partners, that is a very personal choice. Clearly it involves a variety of risks, and you choose what risk you want to take. But I'm sure that an etiquette will evolve around this also of how people choose to manage risks. Because clearly life is going to go on, whether people meet new partners at Fresher's week, through a dating agency, or through an Italian open air night club where 1000 people are having a social event.

RainbowParadise · 21/09/2020 16:25

@herecomesthsun

Re new partners, that is a very personal choice. Clearly it involves a variety of risks, and you choose what risk you want to take. But I'm sure that an etiquette will evolve around this also of how people choose to manage risks. Because clearly life is going to go on, whether people meet new partners at Fresher's week, through a dating agency, or through an Italian open air night club where 1000 people are having a social event.
You say it's a personal choice, but if you are saying that everyone should stick to the guidelines or even laws, then they won't be allowed to. Do you think that's reasonable?
herecomesthsun · 21/09/2020 16:28

@Bikingbear

I'd agree with you. The first wave killed off the most vulnerable.

Not. Dead.Yet.

[evil grin]

Triangularbubble · 21/09/2020 16:33

I don’t think lockdown had anything to do with saving the lives of the elderly and extremely vulnerable. Bluntly, it would have been the same level of public interest and response as a bad flu year - very sad but we’d carry on, the BBC wouldn’t live blog it and we’d all be distracted with Brexit.

Lockdown was done because a huge swathe of key workers all dead/off sick/terrified to come to work as the disease swept the entire population in a matter of a few weeks would have left us without functioning food chains, pharmaceutical chains, clean water, power, policing, internet, banking, deliveries and logistics.... and without an nhs. Lockdown was done so the “not elderly and vulnerable” still had food, water, and medical care for their covid/bike accident/appendicitis/heart attack etc, not because the government has suddenly developed an interest in the welfare of the extremely elderly.

As for people talking about cancer care, even if they hadn’t shut down other services for covid, do you seriously imagine that you’re going to get a smear test or dental checkup or consultant appointment or cancer treatment that leaves you vulnerable to infection while tens of thousands of people are being hospitalised and huge numbers of staff are dead/sick/traumatised or just refusing to work? Even if nhs announced they weren’t treating covid (and that’s not realistic) you’d still not have the staff capacity and anyway, who in an uncontrolled pandemic is going to have elective hip replacement surgery etc in a hospital probably full of undiagnosed covid carriers? As for schools, as much as I’d keep sending my kids, what sane teacher over about 45 would keep teaching them? Huge swathes of workers would just refuse to work.

We are not going back to normal or “learning to live with it” because it would have an enormous indirect impact on the health and lives of young working age healthy people. Call me a cynic but I really don’t think lockdown or continuing restrictions have anything to do with protecting the elderly and vulnerable.

herecomesthsun · 21/09/2020 16:37

@RainbowParadise

Hmm. That wasn't what I was arguing in the last couple of posts. I was suggesting that we find novel ways to keep work and services going so that the providers are safe in the workplace (if we want education/ healthcare etc).

I think you are right there is a real tension about what is possible with finding a partner for single people. Our government hasn't really tackled this (though Holland was very pragmatic and suggested people found congenial temporary housemates with benefits).

I don't have an answer for that (and I imagine there isn't a one size fits all answer, there usually isn't with sex).

Following the rules to the letter is probably a good idea if your job involves designing or imparting the rules,I would say.

From twitter:

Jonathan Lis
@jonlis1
I still find it weird that, after six months, the official government advice remains that single people should have no sexual contact with anyone else, indefinitely, and nobody’s even talking about it

1h
Replying to
@jonlis1
Surely even more wild is that couples that don't live together should have no sexual contact?

Replying to
@jonlis1
I thought you could as long as there are 6 of you & you're outdoors

Derbygerbil · 21/09/2020 16:39

For vulnerable and elderly people it is every bit as dangerous.

Covid is about 10 times more dangerous than flu... Flu is dangerous - Unfortunately Covid is far more so. That’s not to say we shouldn’t live with it, just that we need to understand what we’re dealing with when we do so.

PinkLegoBrick · 21/09/2020 16:44

I think we should look after our elderly and vulnerable and BAME and not shut them away just so everyone else can carry on without any inconvenience.
I hate this "I'm alright Jack" society where if you are at low risk you don't care about anyone else just yourself and your immediate family.
If we just let the virus rip through the population the NHS will be in a much worse state than it was as a result of lockdown.

RainbowParadise · 21/09/2020 16:46

@herecomesthsun I was referring to your reply to my previous post, about people finding new partners.

I don't think anyone is saying that tinder should be approached like it was possible to in 2019. I use it myself and on 2019 I went on loads of dates and didn't distance with many of them.

I've been on a few dates in 2020, far fewer than last year. The ones that took place in lockdown (once it was relaxed a bit) were mostly socially distanced. I've taken into account the current situation. There are two people that I didn't distance with. One that I've met recently and am seeing what happens. Should I have to put finding a relationship on hold? I'm interested to see people's opinions.

Believe it or not I'm by no means advocating going back to normal life from 2019. I absolutely believe that changes were necessary and we needed to stop the spread. People having illegal raves and massive house parties are selfish. I also happen to think though there is a limit to what is reasonable to ask people to do- I personally think there's only so much, to deny people close contact- and even socially distanced meet ups outside which I fear could happen- is wrong. And ironically will only have the opposite effect. People will only have so much tolerance.

HoldingTight · 21/09/2020 16:51

expectingnumber3, I have no idea what you mean by this... You have answered my question there. My family are acceptable collateral damage in learning to live with the virus. Thanks. I am advocating tightening restrictions on our social lives in order to protect the vital services that are so important to us all. How does that make you and your family "acceptable collateral damage"?

annabel85 · 21/09/2020 16:53

[quote RainbowParadise]@herecomesthsun I was referring to your reply to my previous post, about people finding new partners.

I don't think anyone is saying that tinder should be approached like it was possible to in 2019. I use it myself and on 2019 I went on loads of dates and didn't distance with many of them.

I've been on a few dates in 2020, far fewer than last year. The ones that took place in lockdown (once it was relaxed a bit) were mostly socially distanced. I've taken into account the current situation. There are two people that I didn't distance with. One that I've met recently and am seeing what happens. Should I have to put finding a relationship on hold? I'm interested to see people's opinions.

Believe it or not I'm by no means advocating going back to normal life from 2019. I absolutely believe that changes were necessary and we needed to stop the spread. People having illegal raves and massive house parties are selfish. I also happen to think though there is a limit to what is reasonable to ask people to do- I personally think there's only so much, to deny people close contact- and even socially distanced meet ups outside which I fear could happen- is wrong. And ironically will only have the opposite effect. People will only have so much tolerance. [/quote]
People need to put their dating lives on hold, unless they can socially distanced. Yes, it sounds daft but we are dealing with a pandemic. The same way people couldn't just carry on as before when Aids epidemic hit in the 80s and had to be a lot more careful.

The issue is there's a limit to how long people will go along with all and patience is already wearing thin. The scientists are right to point out the 6 month timeframe because we're in for a tough winter.

Cornettoninja · 21/09/2020 16:54

@Triangularbubble in fairness the government was very open that the intention at the beginning was to flatten the curve to within tolerable levels the NHS could cope with. Anything else has been added afterwards as a means to get people to empathise and comply.

Part of the effects of letting covid run through the country unabated will be that people who work in any kind of public service role will not only get sick or die, they will simply refuse to work if they don’t even have the illusion of an attempt to protect them.

I honestly don’t know how supermarket workers carried on through the last peak and am eternally grateful that they did.

RainbowParadise · 21/09/2020 17:04

@annabel85 I mean to be quite honest I'm glad that people won't put it on hold. You may think they should, but not everyone does, and frankly they won't. You can not compare AIDS in the 1980s to coronavirus, people obviously adapted their behaviour but not under duress. It wasn't illegal to have sex with someone outside their household.

As you've said there's a time limit to how long people will comply and I think people have reached it now. And perhaps if the government had been seen to be actually competent it might be different. People have been allowed to jet all over Europe but you can't hug your best friend or get close to a tinder date? This is why compliance will go down the drain.

There is a support thread for people struggling during the pandemic under this topic, there are several women on there heartbroken and thinking that the pandemic may have destroyed their chances of getting married/having children. That is far too much to expect of human beings imo.

whenwillthemadnessend · 21/09/2020 22:07

Why are you all screaming. Lockdown hasn't been announced yet

ancientgran · 21/09/2020 22:18

Viruses come and kill of the weak. That way the strong overtime become stronger. Its not a nice way to think about it but it is nature. So should we stop all vaccinations? No more MMR, no more getting all your jabs before you go somewhere exotic?

PennyDreadfuI · 21/09/2020 22:20

@whenwillthemadnessend

Why are you all screaming. Lockdown hasn't been announced yet
It has for some.
OP posts:
Ecosse · 21/09/2020 23:07

Part of the effects of letting covid run through the country unabated will be that people who work in any kind of public service role will not only get sick or die, they will simply refuse to work if they don’t even have the illusion of an attempt to protect them.

That would be the case if COVID was a totally indiscriminate virus mowing down everyone in its path.

It’s not- so the vast majority of frontline workers will not be at risk of death at all. Unless they have severe health conditions, in which case they should be shielded.

Porcupineinwaiting · 21/09/2020 23:10

Or they're from an ethnic minority but who cares about them eh? Or they might be a bit more reluctant to sacrifice themselves for your right to have a nice time if they have an elderly parent or shielding family member at home.

EmpressoftheMundane · 21/09/2020 23:15

OP, I thought it was a good article with plenty of good for thought. I wish the BBC had been more analytical and measured from the start. They were swept up in the drama at the start and didn’t help the public interrogate the data. Instead it was all shrill shroud waving. Ghoulish really, and not helpful. We need to balance risks and make some grown up choices.

divafever99 · 21/09/2020 23:15

Interesting article. The current situation is unsustainable. Dd was in school 6 days before being sent home for 2 weeks because she "may" have been in contact with someone with covid. There is no end to it. Children will be out of school more that they are in, and I have no idea how working parents who cannot work from home are going to keep their jobs.

Derbygerbil · 21/09/2020 23:34

Viruses come and kill of the weak. That way the strong overtime become stronger. Its not a nice way to think about it but it is nature.

Fuck me... Have I just gone back in time to 1930’s Germany?