Is it time we learned to live with Covid? BBC article today

[PennyDreadfuI]

From the BBC

I'm beginning to think that it might be (and I'm higher risk). It's here to stay, after all, and lockdowns every few months cannot go on indefinitely. All the money spent on lockdown measures could perhaps be ploughed into the NHS to pay for staff/hospitals to provide care for those who need it when they become ill (and to ease the backlog the last lockdown created).

Reinfections run a risk of ADE. Iran already on third wave, with many reports of ADE among healthcare workers

What's ADE?

Antibody dependent enhancement - more severe illness on subsequent infection

WTF are you all so prepared to give up so easily & so quickly on the health, longevity & prosperity gains of recent decades is beyond me

I'm not prepared to give up easily and quickly, but neither am I prepared to live like this for several years.

@Ecosse

Why do people keep bleating about long covid? It does not exist- there are a very small number of people who suffer post- viral reactions.

This is the same with any virus and there is no evidence that COVID sufferers face any more severe or common symptoms of this. The vast majority of ‘long covid’ sufferers will have no symptoms after a few months.

Yeah, a low percentage of people with post-viral reactions can still be a lot of people because of the sheer number who've had the virus (i.e. likely millions in UK and probably hundreds of millions around the world in the space of 6 months); but the perspective needs to be that it's not likely. I fear getting it myself for that reason, but still.

I've had viral infections that have wiped me out for months, it happens

No-one is asking you to live with it for years. If there is no vaccine by Spring then we can talk about how to do normal with Covid. If we just stop measures now, things still won't look like before unless we are going to say that no-one who gets Covid will get treatment. The NHS is badly underfunded and frequently mismanaged and has not been able to stay on top of winter pressures for the past few years. Unrestricted Covid = overwhelmed hospitals and people of all ages dying of ordinary things that would normally be treated. 'covid' hospitals would only fix this if we can magic up huge numbers of staff to work in them.

Living with it is what we're doing now. Its much more about keeping society functioning than stopping old people dying a bit early (average years lost are 10-12 btw)

Learning to live with this new virus is exactly what is happening. Ignoring its existence is not an option.

"but neither am I prepared to live like this for several years."

Live like what? What restrictions to your social life are so onerous that you are not prepared to accept your share of the collective effort to keep schools and businesses open? You seem to be the one who is not prepared to learn to live with the virus (obviously you're not the only one, there seem to be many on Mumsnet who are either selfish or unable to understand the situation we're in).

This won't be forever but it will be for quite some time - we need to pull together to keep infections as low as possible. If we all give up and go back to our usual levels of social activity this will lead to much more severe restrictions.

ADE - antibody dependent enhancement. It's complex but basically means that subsequent infections are worse than the first. Quite a few cases of this in the States now too.

I think we need to rethink how we do things as a society.

Rethink education,

Rethink working from offices.

Rethink shopping and home delivery.

Rethink entertainment.

Rethink how we socialise, how kids can safely have a good time.

Rethink worship.

We can survive even with coronavirus prevalent but if we get past this winter and there isn't a magic vaccine answer then we need to literally rebuild checks of our society.

Either - rethinking and rebuilding -
or slavishly follow hygiene rules and curfews and track and trace, that worked pretty well in the far East
or consign swathes of people to an early death (but that is also deathly for business and we would be an international pariah).

I think the countries that come up with the best and most imaginative solutions first are going to be best placed going forward.

For example, you could have buildings designed where part of the roof can be retracted so that you get maximum ventilation.

Or classroom pods with just 5 or 6 children, in a small matrix of other pods, and the teacher moves around the outside, checking that the work is being done, and instructing from the outside,but quite possibly not breathing the same air.

If this is going to be long term,then we need to build a different future.

It's not just flu. It's a contagious illness with serious and unknown long term effects.
Flu is a contagious illness with serious and unknown long term effects also. People seem to be under the impression that because there is a vaccine, and because there has always been flu, that it is somehow less dangerous. For vulnerable and elderly people it is every bit as dangerous. And it is also just as unpredictable for younger and healthy people. We simply don't think about it.

@herecomesthsun

I think we need to rethink how we do things as a society.

Rethink education,

Rethink working from offices.

Rethink shopping and home delivery.

Rethink entertainment.

Rethink how we socialise, how kids can safely have a good time.

Rethink worship.

We can survive even with coronavirus prevalent but if we get past this winter and there isn't a magic vaccine answer then we need to literally rebuild checks of our society.

Either - rethinking and rebuilding -
or slavishly follow hygiene rules and curfews and track and trace, that worked pretty well in the far East
or consign swathes of people to an early death (but that is also deathly for business and we would be an international pariah).

I think the countries that come up with the best and most imaginative solutions first are going to be best placed going forward.

For example, you could have buildings designed where part of the roof can be retracted so that you get maximum ventilation.

Or classroom pods with just 5 or 6 children, in a small matrix of other pods, and the teacher moves around the outside, checking that the work is being done, and instructing from the outside,but quite possibly not breathing the same air.

If this is going to be long term,then we need to build a different future.

Do you really think that's a long term option? For people to distance forever and not ever meet new partners? For children to be in pods with teachers wandering round?

@HoldingTight

Learning to live with this new virus is exactly what is happening. Ignoring its existence is not an option.

"but neither am I prepared to live like this for several years."

Live like what? What restrictions to your social life are so onerous that you are not prepared to accept your share of the collective effort to keep schools and businesses open? You seem to be the one who is not prepared to learn to live with the virus (obviously you're not the only one, there seem to be many on Mumsnet who are either selfish or unable to understand the situation we're in).

This won't be forever but it will be for quite some time - we need to pull together to keep infections as low as possible. If we all give up and go back to our usual levels of social activity this will lead to much more severe restrictions.

It's not "social life" for many of us though, as you do patronising put it. It is so much more than that. DH has been made redundant as his industry has been fucked by Covid, how do you propose we pay our bills? By "all pulling together"? I'm a carer for one of my children, all the support groups, OC, respite care has ceased, I am at breaking point with the sheer restlessness of it but no-one cares about that or the impact it has on my other three children. My DF's cancer is now terminal as his treatment stopped in March, although I have been told I should be grateful it's not Covid by one charming friend. My DM 's shaky mental health has crumbled and now she is caring for her dying husband too. So no, I'm not moaning about my disrupted social life or Nando's closing at 10pm, it's way more than that. Where is the "collective effort" for people like me? Or is my family acceptable collateral damage? Maybe I am just too selfish to sacrifice everything for the greater good.

@Moondust001

It's not just flu. It's a contagious illness with serious and unknown long term effects. Flu is a contagious illness with serious and unknown long term effects also. People seem to be under the impression that because there is a vaccine, and because there has always been flu, that it is somehow less dangerous. For vulnerable and elderly people it is every bit as dangerous. And it is also just as unpredictable for younger and healthy people. We simply don't think about it.

Flu is potentially dangerous. But this is potentially more dangerous, plus it spreads more easily.

Live like what? What restrictions to your social life are so onerous that you are not prepared to accept your share of the collective effort to keep schools and businesses open? You seem to be the one who is not prepared to learn to live with the virus (obviously you're not the only one, there seem to be many on Mumsnet who are either selfish or unable to understand the situation we're in)

@HoldingTight this is so ignorant and so rude.

My 'social life' is the least of my concerns. I didn't have much of a one before Covid thanks to my other health conditions anyway, and I've no family and friends locally, so chomping at the bit to go out socialising is not on my agenda.

The restrictions I'm concerned about are things like MH provision grinding to a halt (I've had to counsel my DD through suicidal thoughts and depression for months). No access to dentistry (I've lost a tooth which was about to be refilled when lockdown hit, and I've another on the way out). Lack of access to distant learning for deprived children. Cancers going undiagnosed. Reduced face to face GP/consultant appointments. I could go on.

I'm not 'selfish' and this isn't a black/white argument where those in favour of lockdowns are caring saints and those who are concerned about the things I've outlined above are self obsessed ignoramuses hellbent on getting their social lives back on track.

expectingnumber3, I have huge sympathy for you and your family's situation. Jobs will not be saved by pretending there's no virus - at least not in the medium and longer term. Cancer treatments (etc) will not get back to pre-Covid levels by pretending there's no virus, in fact exactly the opposite. I don't know what to suggest about support groups for you and your DC, these should be continued as much as possible and in as safe a way as possible. I maintain that we need to find a way though, where we work together. I'm not sure what you hope will happen?

@PennyDreadfuI

Live like what? What restrictions to your social life are so onerous that you are not prepared to accept your share of the collective effort to keep schools and businesses open? You seem to be the one who is not prepared to learn to live with the virus (obviously you're not the only one, there seem to be many on Mumsnet who are either selfish or unable to understand the situation we're in)

@HoldingTight this is so ignorant and so rude.

My 'social life' is the least of my concerns. I didn't have much of a one before Covid thanks to my other health conditions anyway, and I've no family and friends locally, so chomping at the bit to go out socialising is not on my agenda.

The restrictions I'm concerned about are things like MH provision grinding to a halt (I've had to counsel my DD through suicidal thoughts and depression for months). No access to dentistry (I've lost a tooth which was about to be refilled when lockdown hit, and I've another on the way out). Lack of access to distant learning for deprived children. Cancers going undiagnosed. Reduced face to face GP/consultant appointments. I could go on.

I'm not 'selfish' and this isn't a black/white argument where those in favour of lockdowns are caring saints and those who are concerned about the things I've outlined above are self obsessed ignoramuses hellbent on getting their social lives back on track.

Exactly Penny. You put it so much better than me.

PennyDreadful, the things you list are among the services that further restrictions are intended to protect. What do you think should happen? Ignoring the virus will lead to further reductions in healthcare along with more and more school and business closures.

@mac12

Antibody dependent enhancement - more severe illness on subsequent infection

So the complete opposite to the immunity that people expect a virus to give. .

Non medical person here is that what Chicken pox / shingles does, more serious infection the second time?

@PennyDreadful

The problem is that even just a rising tide of flu infections will have a profound on the delivery of healthcare as you describe. Flu and winter illness cause huge demand issues for the NHS every year and reduced capacity due to staff absence. Many healthcare providers have to cancel appointments and operations anyway. Resources are constantly and systemically pushed into Acute admissions for the old and vulnerable.

An unfettered wave of Covid won’t get you better MH services or dental services. Because resources will go into acute services and admissions. Whatever you and others dream of happening isn’t going to happen if we remove restrictions.

@HoldingTight

PennyDreadful, the things you list are among the services that further restrictions are intended to protect. What do you think should happen? Ignoring the virus will lead to further reductions in healthcare along with more and more school and business closures.

Six more months of restrictions aren't going to 'protect' people who are suicidal, those with undiagnosed cancers, those with conditions which need monitoring or those who require dental care.

As I keep saying, I don't have the answers. All I have is concerns.

@HoldingTight

expectingnumber3, I have huge sympathy for you and your family's situation. Jobs will not be saved by pretending there's no virus - at least not in the medium and longer term. Cancer treatments (etc) will not get back to pre-Covid levels by pretending there's no virus, in fact exactly the opposite. I don't know what to suggest about support groups for you and your DC, these should be continued as much as possible and in as safe a way as possible. I maintain that we need to find a way though, where we work together. I'm not sure what you hope will happen?

Right now, I hope others will recognise that not wanting another lockdown is not selfish and it is not about socialising or shopping of getting drunk. I am so sick of that line, it is so reductive and divisive, it is way more nuanced than that. Of course there is a virus, of course there will be impacts at every level, but by focusing in Covid to the detriment of everything else is not proportionate. As for what I hope will happen? No idea. Hope is a luxury i can't afford at the moment, just getting through the here and now.

PennyDreadful, the problem is that the lack of availability of the services you mention will become considerably worse if we allow Covid to take off and swamp our health services. The tightening of restrictions will affect our social lives and are necessary to protect the services you mention. This is what learning to live with the virus looks like.

@expectingnumber3 and @HoldingTight I'm so sorry to hear what you are both going through. Anything I think of writing feels weak and insignificant, I am thinking of you and people struggling and only hope that things improve for you both soon.

Fwiw, I'm sick of being made to feel guilty for wanting an actual life worth living as opposed to a mere existence, @HoldingTight. I've had an awful couple of years, escaping an abusive, controlling husband, and had to fight to get away. And have worked hard to build a life, a career, and a new social life after that. I had pride in my achievements and my freedom. This is so incredibly triggering for me, to feel controlled and restricted all over again.

People are allowed different opinions as to how this should be dealt with and believing there should be more balance and consideration for matters other than coronavirus does not make people heartless or selfish. Our government have dealt with this appallingly and all groups of society are suffering as a consequence, but it will be the young whose life chances, education, opportunities and careers that will be affected for the rest of their lives. There's a lot of people on here that don't see the danger in this also.

@HoldingTight My son was born in lockdown. He is my parents' first grandchild, after we went through years of infertility. Because of travel restrictions they haven't met yet. If we wait until spring, he may well be walking before they meet him. I just wish they could have held him when he was tiny. 😭

People are making huge sacrifices and we will never get this time back. I was in hospital for 5 days around the birth without visitors allowed for 4 out of 5 and I don't want even more women to go through it unnecessarily.

@HoldingTight

PennyDreadful, the problem is that the lack of availability of the services you mention will become considerably worse if we allow Covid to take off and swamp our health services. The tightening of restrictions will affect our social lives and are necessary to protect the services you mention. This is what learning to live with the virus looks like.

I agree. It’s really hard and people are affected and suffering in all sorts of ways but to a point it’s unavoidable. There is a much bigger picture at play.

It's not just flu. It's a contagious illness with serious and unknown long term effects. This.