"It is, alas, a fact of the disease that it is readily transmissible between children and adults"

[noblegiraffe]

Says our PM.

So can all those people who spent the entire summer telling teachers that their worries about returning to school without any mitigation measures that it was FINE because children didn't spread it please now start campaigning for mitigation measures in schools because it appears that people's lives are being put at risk.

twitter.com/mikercameron/status/1306246353379569665?s=21

@notevenat20

Others think differently.

That's the same isn't it? There is nothing there that suggests that child to adult transmission is close to as common as adult to adult transmission.

That’s not the point, which is that children can and do transmit the virus.

So, as typical with these circular discussion, we have gone back to discussing young children, as if they are the only children in schools.

There is no evidence- literally none- that older children are not epidemiologically the same as adults in terms of transmissions. there is also virtually no research going into transmission amongst teenagers and young adults : and . yet, this is where it is currently rife.

The majority of part or fully closed schools are primaries , mind. maybe because parents of young children seek reassurance and medical intervention more, maybe because they are more efficient spreading , or may be because there are no bubbles in secondary!

The problem is that I honestly don't think anyone understands the virus enough to be able to confidently say that it's safe for kids to mix at school. I completely understand the necessity to get back to education, given that parents need to go back to work and grandparents might not be able to provide childcare, but all the same we shouldn't keep our heads in the sand when it comes to risks.

This is all true. It's also important to remember that schools are open all over the world and in many countries with far more cases than us.

That’s not the point, which is that children can and do transmit the virus.

I hope this doesn't seem too direct but actually your point is really not the point as far as I am concerned.

Children rarely get very ill from covid. So the only problem caused by their having covid is if they transmit it to adults.. We all know that is possible but the question is, is it likely. All the evidence so far is that asymptomatic children, which is the majority of children with covid, are unlikely to infect adults.

Of course something else can be important to someone else but that is the important point to me.

There is no evidence- literally none- that older children are not epidemiologically the same as adults in terms of transmissions. there is also virtually no research going into transmission amongst teenagers and young adults : and . yet, this is where it is currently rife.

You are wrong in at least one important sense. Teenagers very rarely get very ill from covid and are in fact often asymptomatic. So that is a significant medical difference to older adults. As far as I know, no one yet fully understands why this is.

On a more speculative note, if you are asymptomatic you are not coughing and that may be enough in itself to reduce the risk of transmission at least to a degree.

It’s unlikely that I’ll get hit by a car when crossing the road. But that doesn’t stop me being aware of the possibility and taking precautions.

Young children are unlikely to infect others, but they can. Older children are as likely to infect others as are adults. Those are facts. How individuals interpret risk and make efforts to minimise it is up to them.

The gap between private schools - which can follow best practice (small class sizes, social distancing, and presumably even test and trace if they can pay for tests privately) and state schools is going to get wider, and wider and wider

I don't disagree the gap is widening. But there is no magic in private schools that doesn't exist elsewhere. Class sizes are smaller but so are classrooms. Social distancing where I work is non existent. There is no space for it in classrooms. Our children are perhaps easier to handle as a whole, generally don't have to be told twice, that kind of thing. But it is only a matter of time before the private schools are sending people home - assuming they're not already. We are, that's for sure.

So true enough. My DH works in a private school. They are so mythologised on MN! His class sizes aren't even all that small tbh.

That's why I said in terms of transmissions so I am not wrong not!

in many countries with far more cases than us.

Such as?

If you mean France and Spain this was at the same time as us and so they have as little evidence of success as we do.

It’s unlikely that I’ll get hit by a car when crossing the road. But that doesn’t stop me being aware of the possibility and taking precautions. Young children are unlikely to infect others, but they can. Older children are as likely to infect others as are adults. Those are facts. How individuals interpret risk and make efforts to minimise it is up to them.

Yes. So you still cross the road because you have things to do. The benefits outweigh the risk. For schools the benefits are huge so the balance is really in favour of keeping them open unless the risks really become overwhelming.

I don't think it is a fact that 12 years old pose the same risk as adults. I don't even know if that is a fact for 18 year olds (it is a reasonable guess though). It's important not to overstate what we know. Bear in mind we also don't know why they get so much less ill but this does mean there is something very different about covid in an 18 year to covid in a 60 year old.

I don't disagree the gap is widening. But there is no magic in private schools that doesn't exist elsewhere. Class sizes are smaller but so are classrooms. Social distancing where I work is non existent.

There is a very different incentive structure. All the state schools heads and full time teachers know they will get paid in full even if the school is shut. For a private school there is a good chance the school will go bankrupt. I am sure this makes a difference.

The gap between private schools - which can follow best practice (small class sizes, social distancing, and presumably even test and trace if they can pay for tests privately) and state schools is going to get wider, and wider and wider

Parent of a private school kid.
A top ranking private school in Lonen. They have about 6 rugby fields, have completed total rebuild and addition to the secondary building last year.
Yet the smaller classes still sit shoulder to shoulder as the extra space is A)outside B) taken up by specialist labs or huge library,....

They are in no way better position than any other school in this regards.

Where I do see a huge gap is the full online transition and provision. They have coped really well in the summer term and kids were engaged.

Now, that the situation is very messy - some kids home, most is school- they are sub-par in regards to kids staying home. So there will be an in-house gap of in-person and online students somewhere down the line.

There is a very different incentive structure.
This actually is a problem, because they are more pressured into staying open and providing in-person education regardless of the situation. And it's not just money pressure, but parent pressure to "do what we pay you for" :(
An inline with that pressure a fun tidbit... just got an email from school that they think the covid situation will be under control and will be improving very soon so they are planning on resuming sunday fixtures against other schools in rugby and football after half term. So they have made it mandatory for A and B teams to participate in sunday practice even without fixtures.

I don't know if I should cry or laugh at this, but might end up doing both....

Italy paid for 40000 more teachers and took over any available public spaces to instigate social distancing.

This was posted on another thread.

I think what they've done - opened schools as normal - is absolutely the worst thing they could have done for children's mental health.

Yes, lockdown was hard, but it was consistent.

What they've done is lie to children. There's been a week or so of lovely, normal school, just so kids can fully appreciate what they're missing and then a complete shit show of uncertainty and disaster.

DD has been in tears since having to be off while her sister fails to get a test for a mild fever. She enjoyed school so much. If we can't get a test, that's 2 weeks off.

Friends in the US have kids who are fully or partially schooled at home (with excellent, state provided resources) and whilst obviously it's not ideal it's a hell of a lot better than the utter messing around we're giving our kids.

And that's before you even consider the much higher risk that children will lose family members due to uncontrolled spread of covid (the children with vulnerable parents) and the lifelong devastation that could cause.

What they've done to children (and teachers) is CRUEL.

All because they're only generous with cash when it's going into the pockets of their pals.

There is SO MUCH they could do to make schools safer - and more likely to stay open - SO MUCH. With just money (and maybe permission to use community space as in Italy).

Benefits of school - yes, but we're not going to see those benefits when our kids are isolating two weeks continuously. And teachers are unlikely to be able to deliver those benefits with kids out and in and out again and bubbles closing, and everyone having covered different work. And that's assuming they don't get sick, which is clearly not a given.

The problem is that to fix the schools with money we would have to raise taxes but this year tax revenue will be really low because of the collapse of gdp caused by covid (and schools being shut).

It is a lot. 40,000 teachers plus rest in Italy €2.9bn

Trouble is that doesn’t solve much as it’s 1 teacher and a bit per school here

Better than nothing but you can see how expensive it is to increase space

@notevenat20

It’s unlikely that I’ll get hit by a car when crossing the road. But that doesn’t stop me being aware of the possibility and taking precautions. Young children are unlikely to infect others, but they can. Older children are as likely to infect others as are adults. Those are facts. How individuals interpret risk and make efforts to minimise it is up to them.

Yes. So you still cross the road because you have things to do. The benefits outweigh the risk. For schools the benefits are huge so the balance is really in favour of keeping them open unless the risks really become overwhelming.

I don't think it is a fact that 12 years old pose the same risk as adults. I don't even know if that is a fact for 18 year olds (it is a reasonable guess though). It's important not to overstate what we know. Bear in mind we also don't know why they get so much less ill but this does mean there is something very different about covid in an 18 year to covid in a 60 year old.

I didn’t say twelve year olds pose the same risk as adults. FWIW I teach in FE, which is probably the most problematic sector in terms of transmission. I teach ages 16 - 60 and am going in and doing my job every day, with minimal mitigation measures, because frankly it’s impossible. I do have more control over who I teach and social distancing than I would in secondary, but not much. Colleagues have no control, and are struggling. The thing that annoys me most is the distortion and denial of reality from the Government (and from many head teachers and some college leaders). If they simply admitted that children and young adults can transmit the virus, and gave teachers and support staff support and praise for what they do, many of us would be less affronted and enraged, and fewer people who don’t understand the situation in education would offer unhelpful opinions as to how we should be managing it.

notevenat20

Interesting that you put schools being shut and misses every business that was shut as well, as if it was schools that created this situation.

Interesting that you put schools being shut and misses every business that was shut as well, as if it was schools that created this situation.

Sorry I don't quite follow. I certainly don't think schools created the pandemic if that is the criticism.

The "criticism" is that you seem to believe that schools and covid caused the drop in gdp.

If true it shows a lack of critical thinking.

And if you don't think this it just shows that you have tagged it on to just annoy other posters.

The "criticism" is that you seem to believe that schools and covid caused the drop in gdp.If true it shows a lack of critical thinking.

Not sure about the "quotes" but nonetheless... Yes of course covid caused the drop in GDP. As part of that schools closing made it very hard for women in particular to work even online and damaged many of their careers. That also has harmed GDP.

notevenat20

You are really working hard to blame schools for something.

And this helps women how?

www.theguardian.com/education/2020/sep/17/uk-home-schooling-numbers-double-in-a-week-amid-covid-test-shortages

Piggywaspushed

No doubt notevenat20 will blame the schools for the kids being off.