COVID in UK in Dec 2019

[PicsInRed]

news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-daughter-of-uk-man-who-died-from-covid-19-in-january-attacks-china-for-cover-up-12067060

The above is about an elderly man, who hadn't left the UK, became ill in December, and died in January. COVID has now been found in his lung tissue.

The assumption seems to he that he contracted COVID in the community, long before it was presumed to even be in the community. He seems to have passed it on to his granddaughter, who presumably would also have unknowingly transmitted it further in the community.

With chest film and faecal samples now putting COVID in Europe in Autumn 2019 - or even possibly as early as March 2019 - surely there are some pretty big questions that need to be asked and answered by the government?

I suspect that most of the people who are sure they had it probably didn't. Google the BBC article about the Bradford Choir. Many viruses have similar symptoms. As another poster has said, that patient could have caught Covid in Jan in hospital when he was already ill.

@GwendolineMarysLaces

I suspect that most of the people who are sure they had it probably didn't. Google the BBC article about the Bradford Choir. Many viruses have similar symptoms. As another poster has said, that patient could have caught Covid in Jan in hospital when he was already ill.

When people say 'It's only like the Flu' about Covid, neglects the fact that the flu (the actual flu, not a cold) is nasty and kills a lot of people and would kill a lot more vulnerable people if they weren't annually vaccinated against it. Obviously nobody has been vaccinated against Covid, so it wiped out vulnerable people (many of whom would have had the flu jab). Certainly around March and into lockdown there was a nasty strain of Covid 19.

Viral infections, pneumonia, chest/respiratory/ENT infections, the flu etc - and now Covid - are all nasty viruses which can be indistinguishable from one another, as they all carry many of the same symptoms.

Thousands of people in November/December/January would have been laid low with one of these viruses and they won't know which viral infection it was they had.

RSV seemed to be rife last winter. My baby was admitted and the wards were just full of little ones with respiratory issues. She was swabbed though and it was definitely RSV. I’m fairly sure she had Covid in March though. We had a night in A&E but because she wasn’t critical she wasn’t tested.

What's that saying? "When you hear hoofbeats behind you, don't expect to see a zebra"

The UK has done more genome sequencing of COVID than anywhere else in the world. The strain circulating here has been traced back to an Italian businessman who had links with Wuhan. He went to a conference in Italy where he infected a load of people. In the weeks afterwards the same strain spread to France, Spain and the UK.

Every man and his dog thinks they had COVID in November/December of last year.

If you look back to December of 2018 or 2017 you'll inevitably find mumsnet posts of "does anyone have this awful illness" with a load of people showing COVID symptoms.

There's only so many illness symptoms and COVID causes most of the common ones. If it made you cry purple tears and people said they were crying purple tears in November 2019, I would be more inclined to believe them.

Unfortunately the evidence suggests that there weren't significant COVID cases in the UK before late February last year (although there would have inevitably been some small clusters of disease).

Only around 6% of people in the UK test positive for antibodies and those tests are pretty accurate.

palacegirl77
Sheffield? It was definitely rife here whatever it was!

Not sure about the other poster but I did work in the same place as you - it was rife! I was ill at the beginning of February, but didn't have a cough or fever (and hadn't been to China or Italy) so didn't think it was Covid, but now my doctor says it almost certainly was. The symptoms I had - loss of taste/smell and covid toes - are now seen as classic covid symptoms.

Even at the time I found it ridiculous that only people who had travelled to those were thought to be at risk, when there were plenty of people who hadn't but were in close contact with people who had. The thing that still really bothers me is that I wasn't particularly unwell, didn't think I had covid and so went about my life, and now live with the thought that I may well have given it to people who weren't as fortunate.

@SaskiaRembrandt

palacegirl77 Sheffield? It was definitely rife here whatever it was!

Not sure about the other poster but I did work in the same place as you - it was rife! I was ill at the beginning of February, but didn't have a cough or fever (and hadn't been to China or Italy) so didn't think it was Covid, but now my doctor says it almost certainly was. The symptoms I had - loss of taste/smell and covid toes - are now seen as classic covid symptoms.

Even at the time I found it ridiculous that only people who had travelled to those were thought to be at risk, when there were plenty of people who hadn't but were in close contact with people who had. The thing that still really bothers me is that I wasn't particularly unwell, didn't think I had covid and so went about my life, and now live with the thought that I may well have given it to people who weren't as fortunate.

I don't mean to be harsh but there's every chance you've passed on other illnesses to people who suffered more than you did quite a few times in the past - covid isn't the only illness that has serious effects for vulnerable people and it isn't the only illness that kills people, so worrying about covid is a bit pointless, especially as you didn't even know at the time and didn't do it deliberately.

Only around 6% of people in the UK test positive for antibodies and those tests are pretty accurate.

They're only accurate if the person was ill enough to develop antibodies, they aren't at all accurate when it comes to identifying the people who were mildly ill or asymptomatic who generally don't develop an antibody response. This is why the project to develop a convalescent plasma treatment are asking for donations from people who have survived severe cases.

TheDailyCarbuncle Obviously I didn't do it deliberately, but I'm afraid it is something that bothers me. A friend lost her uncle to it, she thinks she may have given it to him, but we went for a night out together the weekend before she became ill, so I do wonder if I gave it to her. Maybe I didn't, but I'd have to be pretty hard hearted not to care.

My dad was extremely ill the whole of January. He had 3 courses of antibiotics (which did nothing), was back and forth from the GP, and put a rib out from the coughing. Ended up being admitted to A&E, but only for one night. He has the flu jab every year like clockwork because of his diabetes (I know they don't always work), but his GP and hospital didn't have a clue, even after blood tests. Went down as suspected pneumonia in the end. I am absolutely convinced it was Covid.

DD went to London at the end of January to visit her girlfriend, who had just come back to the UK after spending the uni Christmas break in China with her family. First week of February all of us - me, DH, DD, DD's gf - all came down with something which hit us so suddenly, it was like nothing I'd ever experienced (I was sitting on the sofa and it was like a wave crashing into me out of nowhere). We all had dry coughs, fever, a weird sore throat on one side only, painful legs which wouldn't take out weight, etc. DD and her gf recovered fairly quickly, I was ill on and off for weeks by DH was in a very bad way. His loss of taste and smell was absolute and they still haven't fully returned. At one point he could hardly breathe and got an emergency GP appointment - dr asked him if he'd been to China recently (this was towards the end of February) which he hadn't, but he mentioned DD's gf. He was given antibiotics for a chest infection 'to be on the safe side' according to the GP, although he couldn't hear any signs of infection when he listened to his chest. Altogether DH was off work for almost six weeks.

So yes, I do think it was probably here in January. We live in a big city so of we had it, goodness knows how many others did here - DD was at uni the whole time, using public transport, working at her coffee shop job, because nobody told her she shouldn't be.

Incidentally the antibiotics did nothing for DH - he finished two courses and was still unwell.

I am convinced my DH had it in late December

My friend and her DH were terribly ill in December. Awful non stop cough and illness. Dr said she had pleurisy, bronchitis and pneumonia. She was still coughing in Feb half term when we finally met up when she felt well enough.

My boss was critically ill also in December. He was in ICU with pneumonia. He was tested for all know coronavirus, but in December there wasn’t a covid 19 test. He finally returned to work in March in time for lockdown. Recently I was chatting to him and he is convinced he had covid 19. All the symptoms. Young fit chap. Still suffering now with breathlessness.

The thing that still really bothers me is that I wasn't particularly unwell, didn't think I had covid and so went about my life, and now live with the thought that I may well have given it to people who weren't as fortunate.

A week before lockdown I came down with what may or may not have been Covid, a virus basically, so had to phone up work and self isolate and then the office shut down a week later anyway. I felt crap for about three weeks, but in normal times i'd have worked throughout it. Not because i'm personally reckless, but that's just the culture here in UK normally. You're expected to go to work if you can get out of bed, basically. If you're off sick in our place for more than 6 days in a year you're on a trigger warning, so if you can go to work you go to work.

In November/December time there was loads in our place who had Covid symptoms and you'd get people who'd just work through it. The girl sitting next to me came back from holiday and was ill with it and coughed constantly for a couple of weeks and was quite bad with it generally, but still came in every single day. I inevitably got ill around the same time but relatively mild. Another older lady in the team was really bad and got sent home with it. This was all before Christmas.

@GwendolineMarysLaces

I suspect that most of the people who are sure they had it probably didn't. Google the BBC article about the Bradford Choir. Many viruses have similar symptoms. As another poster has said, that patient could have caught Covid in Jan in hospital when he was already ill.

OK - devils advocate - if he caught it in January it was here then wasnt it. Much earlier than first thought - how many other people had it too?

Well yes exactly. Even in the unlikely event he caught it after being admitted to hospital with COVID symptoms it was still in the hospital back in Jan wasn’t it? So it was spreading then.

I thought I had it in March but if we're throwing the December cough from hell into the mix then I've had it twice
I actually ended up in hospital for 5 days at Christmas with internal bleeding because I coughed that much. Despite gasping for breath and barely able to breathe - the doctors were understandably more concerned with stopping the bleeding.
I guess I'll never know.

@notangelinajolie

I thought I had it in March but if we're throwing the December cough from hell into the mix then I've had it twice I actually ended up in hospital for 5 days at Christmas with internal bleeding because I coughed that much. Despite gasping for breath and barely able to breathe - the doctors were understandably more concerned with stopping the bleeding. I guess I'll never know.

Like this?

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7203058/

@PicsInRed
Thank you that is very interesting. No need for heparin as I already take anticoagulant medication so I was already half way there with the risk for bleeding. Combine that with a bad cough and the reported Covid complications in that article it is not surprising I ended up in a&e.
I really hope it wasn't Covid because I must have come into contact with hundreds of medics and patients while I was in hospital. It was the week before Christmas.
I was convinced I had Covid in March but my family all think it was December. No cough in March (thank God) but I had a very high fever, breathless, tight chest and generally felt dreadful.

I'm racking my brains because I did lose my sense of taste but I can't remember whether it was the first time I was ill or the second.

through out Feb I was awful cough/cold sore throat just felt rubbish then early March my dd was given antibiotics of gp for high temp no other signs are symptoms gp done the usual checks chest ears throat but because temp had been on of for week give antibiotics I think we've had it.

I had something horribly Covid like in early January. It lasted about 6 weeks, horrible coughing, 2 courses of antibiotics for pneumonia. I had a week off work self certified but little sympathy from the GP just it’s probably a virus, never mind so no sick note and back to work to cough on my colleagues, several of who had similar symptoms. I was literally working and sleeping, I thought I’d never feel better.
Maybe it was Covid, maybe it wasn’t, my colleagues laughed and called me patient zero as the story from China emerged. I was negative for antibodies in June.
I completely believe it was here earlier but if it wasn’t then other viruses can be just as nasty.

I saw this earlier too. I suppose now we can see we can have quite a lot of infections and people not being seriously ill and then it explodes. The more time goes on the more I wonder if it was what I had when I felt like shite in February and it was all round my work too. It was horrible. I also saw a feature on BBC news from Monklands hospital ICU who had said they’d been dealing with it since the second week in Jan

OK - devils advocate - if he caught it in January it was here then wasnt it. Much earlier than first thought - how many other people had it too?

January, yes. November/December? Who knows? It was Christmas/New Year where it really started to cause waves in China, so from there it wouldn't have took long to spread with open borders.

There are a lot of people locally who think that it was here Nov/Dec. There is a travel link with China that fits with the timeline too. I can list numerous odd stories which people were talking about before covid appeared on the horizon. One includes someone who had a mysterious form of pneumonia. Doctors did all sorts of tests on and couldn't identify what caused it. He was ill for some considerable time.

The earliest case in France is thought to be at the end of December and thats thought to be via community transmission - though there is also some debate about how reliable that case is too. But there is other evidence emerging in other places in Europe about early cases and its not that much of an outlier when put into this context.

Whats interesting at present is the number of cases testing positive v the number of deaths - which does suggest perhaps the virus could have been in certain communities a lot longer than previously thought without being detected.

I also note in terms of excess deaths, the fact the end of last year was particularly mild, it does mean any deaths from covid could have been masked by an unusually low number of deaths from other seasonal illnesses.

It certainly within the realms of possibility that it being here in mid Dec is a reasonable theory and I do think that as time goes on, we will see more information slowly emerge that supports it.

Even if this particular man caught covid in hospital in January, that suggests that local transmission in hospitals was already occurring. And that begs the question, where did that come from? Dismissing the idea that he was admitted for covid, when he had all the symptoms, seems odd and really only takes things back to probably around mid January if you take into account how long it took him to be infected / someone else in the hospital setting being infected in someway. Thats still some weeks before the first known case in the UK.

Previous data has already suggested that for the peak to have occurred at the level it did in April, the virus MUST have been circulating freely in the community for AT LEAST three to four months.

So finding this case isn't hugely surprising nor unexpected tbh.

@annabel85

OK - devils advocate - if he caught it in January it was here then wasnt it. Much earlier than first thought - how many other people had it too?

January, yes. November/December? Who knows? It was Christmas/New Year where it really started to cause waves in China, so from there it wouldn't have took long to spread with open borders.

I agree, annabel, and further it may have been circulating in China much earlier than Christmas.

uk.reuters.com/article/uk-health-coronavirus-china-research-idUKKBN23G0OE

This is disputed by China, but here is Harvard's research suggesting that the virus may have already become a "problem" in Wuhan in August of 2019. With Wuhan being a major city, which has multiple daily flights around the world, if it was a problem for Wuhan, it would have soon thereafter taken root everywhere else.

Again, this is disputed, but even the notion that it was in Europe in January was widely ridiculed not so long ago. And here we are.