'People have relaxed too much' .... have they?

[SqidgeBum]

This evening Deputy Chief medic Van Tam said the rise in cases were because 'people have relaxed too much' and we all need to take things more seriously. This has made me a bit angry to be honest. I am of the camp who doesnt understand how the shops, restaurants, and pubs can open and the government actively encourage us all to get out and spend, the schools open and we are told its safe, and people are being encouraged to go back on tubes and buses to offices, but its then somehow OUR fault when cases rise.

Was this not inevitable? Did the government not know this would happen as a result of opening things up? I feel pretty peeved that the public are being made out to be the bad guys when we are acting on government advice.

What do people think? Have people become too lax?

The ‘it’s time to live our life’ brigade would not say this if it were Ebola or a war.

But it isn't either!

Ebola is a very different virus - compared to this coronavirus it's actually a very inefficient one! Ebola is certainly very scary - it's kill rate is one of the highest, and for anyone contracting the virus there is a strong possibility of death. That makes it an inefficient spreader - it kills so rapidly and thoroughly that it effectively limits itself, and basic suppression techniques work quickly to control it. This particular version of coronavirus is very efficient - it spreads quickly and with relative ease precisely because it is not a serious illness for the vast majority of people.

And it isn't a war. That's just silly to compare a natural occurring virus to the human propensity to willingly wipe out large numbers of each of other based on spurious claims to resources, superiority et al.

I have seen both Ebola and war - coronavirus is nothing compared to either.

Personally, I think that lockdown was worth trying, and nobody could have predicted whether it would work or not with a new virus that nobody had any experience of. However, given the relative incubation periods, the outbreak ought to have shown more significant drops in numbers in the early periods of lockdown, if the strategy were working. Within six weeks, I believe it was clear that it was not, and that short of a total and indefinite lockdown, suppression would not be effective. There is no second wave. A second wave requires the first wave to "go out" and this virus has simply lurked, continuing to spread. Just like many other viruses.

Experts are very bad at admitting that their solution doesn't work. The "solution" experts are pedalling is that more suppression will happen because it's "our fault" the virus is spreading. It is not our fault. The virus is doing what viruses do, and it is time to try something different. We cannot afford another lockdown, at any level - whether that be economically, for health reasons (coronavirus is not the only sickness out there and people are dying due to lack of treatment; to say nothing of the mental health outcomes of all this) or anything else.

Hopefully, we will have a vaccine, but we cannot depend on that, or on any early vaccine being very efficient. But for my money, I think we now need to change tack. Protect the most vulnerable (if that is what they want - not everyone does) and safeguard their income etc., and the rest of us get on with life - not least of all to pay for those being protected. We do this every day of our lives. We always have. There are many things out there as scary or scarier than this virus, that kill just as many people (and in this country too) - we do not close down everything to manage those risks.

So another bright idea by the government to order those WFH back to workplaces at the same time as schools, colleges and unis return. So kids, many probably asymptomatic, spread to parents who in turn spread it to their workplaces and then the wider community. Chris Whitty said when schools reopened there would have to be trade offs and surely one of these should have been that those who can work from home should. To allow schools to remain open we need to trade off by reducing social contacts elsewhere.

I agree op
Personally I think the virus is airborne so social distancing/handwashing doesn't have a huge effect. It didn't help in March and it's not helping now.
There is evidence air conditioning spreads the virus effectively. I was horrified at the "eat out to help out" combined with social distancing of one metre - round here restaurants were packed with the air con going. Perfect conditions to spread the virus.
And then the government have the cheek to blame us. Or more specifically, subsections of society.
They imply 20 year olds are out partying but it could in fact be that is the section 8f society most likely to be using public transport/working in restaurants etc
To be honest the message makes me want to be disobedient. Its ridiculous.

@Calledyoulastnightfromglasgow

See - I’m on the other side. People are relaxing as no one is dying any more and they honestly can’t see the fuss. Its time to live our lives. Life is - quite literally - too short to spend any more time shutting ourselves away from a virus that is killing a minutiae. That sounds harsh but it’s the way most people now think.

I am worried-ish about my elderly parents but do I think else should throw a generation under a bus to protect them? Hell, no

That's very sad, lots of people love their family and want to protect them, I do hope someone else is looking out for your parents as you clearly don't give a shit.

Hopefully, we will have a vaccine, but we cannot depend on that, or on any early vaccine being very efficient. But for my money, I think we now need to change tack. Protect the most vulnerable (if that is what they want - not everyone does) and safeguard their income etc., and the rest of us get on with life - not least of all to pay for those being protected.
Well said

My dcs returned to secondary school and came home saying no no social distancing, hardly any masks being worn and no hand gel! I'm seething. Teachers weren't even telling pupils to social distance or monitoring. That's a different story though but just an example how even teachers don't seem to be bothering.

Please don’t blame the teachers. Social distancing is NOT POSSIBLE in schools. We have been trying to get this message across for weeks but just get told we are workshy wingers.

The government is advised by behavioural scientists, they knew exactly what was going to happen. This is all part of the plan, relax lockdown with confusing and contradictory guidelines, and when it all goes wrong, let people blame each other.

Also, as ever it is minority groups that are having the blame pointed at them. The local lockdowns blamed on Muslims, blaming disabled people who cannot wear masks. Divide and conquer. It's what they've done for the past ten years, and enough have fallen for it and will continue to do so.

I agree, social distancing is not possible in schools.

We're heading towards another lockdown.

The gov are in a no win situation. Open up and it'll spread. Stay in lockdown and we go to hell in a hand cart.

IF we'd opened up and people were following the rules plus distancing (clearly a lot are not) infections would be lower.

Bit too easy to blame the gov for everything, inc the behaviour of idiots

Some are continuing to act on public advice, lots are not and that’s the issue

@ChaChaCha2012 This weeks message is blame the young people and telling them 'don't kill gran'. Last week it was people WFH should feel guilty for others loosing their jobs in Pret. Anything so that we turn on each other. They govern by gaslighting.

The gov are in a no win situation. Open up and it'll spread

Ensuring adequate and timely testing ensures we can manage outbreaks before they become a wider issue. Why can't people get tests and why are they taking days to be processed?

An effective track and trace system can stop that spread. So why don't we have one?

Passing data to local public health teams can stop the spread. Why is it taking days for that to happen?

Some increase is inevitable. The government had months to put measures in place to manage that. They've done sod all.

@ExLitEveDallas

But you have to admit there's so much confusion as to what's safe and what isn't. Parents may think that if a child can be in a class with 33 others, what difference does inviting them home for a party make? It's a logical question.

You're spot on @NotaKaren about gaslighting. It's been going on since the Cummings trip. The government has taken the role of an abuser, making sure you know you're place because they'll tell you you're wrong no matter how hard you try.

The government need to take responsibility for their confusing messages, the shite track and trace system, the rush to open schools without planning how to social distance, guilt tripping employees who are working from home into saving Costa and Pret, blaming different sections of the population depending on what day of the week it is, allowing Covid-19 to spread unchecked in care homes, opening pubs etc knowing that after a few beers nobody will social distance.

Boris has been practically invisible, fucking off on holiday, blathering during PMQ's and refusing to sack Cummings.

The government are a shower of shite.

Yes teachers I know having big parties with the same number of people they’d have invited before lockdown all indoors. Nobody I know is social distancing .

People going to pubs etc are supposed to social distance but they don’t. The pubs here are a heaving mass congregated around the entrances or tables with multiple households.

Agree with moondust. Society can't function like this so it's time for a pragmatic solution. Protect those at high risk and let the rest of us crack on, the cost of any other solution is just too high.

@DOINGOURBIT totally agree with you.
My DD is in a ‘bubble’ of 30 children in her class, so why would it matter if she had all/some of those children at a party, when she’s crammed into a small classroom with them all day anyway?

Of course we will get the blame.

The country has pretty much completely reopened. People going to work, shops, restaurants etc.

We've been encouraged to get back out there so much and people rightly are whilst hopefully still being cautious which most people I know are.
Its September germ season is here! Both me and my eldest have had heavy colds he goes to nursery and will no doubt get many more.

I had flu 3 years ago I'm healthy in my 20's and got very ill with it.

Lets wait to see if hospital and deaths go up.

Personally I think the comments he made were a bit unfair and it annoys me how they always blame people socialising for any spike. I'm sure you can catch it at work as well!

Basically go to work and spend money!

Too many mixed messages and U-turns for people to take anything the Govt says with any seriousness now.

The scientists have carried the Govt party line and have lost any credibility too, even over the Cummings debacle, they couldn't bring themselves to criticise his actions & Johnsons support for him, even Van Tams mild rebuke was in code.... weak political appointees.

Now the young who have had their education and lives wrecked by lockdown (Germany managed to hold exams) have had enough and who can blame them?

The government have shown poor leadership but my ever diminishing faith in humanity ebbs further away with every Covid denier I see on social media. Including celebrities who suddenly appear to be experts. 🙄

None wants to saying ‘told you so’ but there are a fair few qualified folk pointing to the start of exponential growth again in numbers of new cases. And yes, most of us will be fine but it’s a bit shit if you’re vulnerable and nobody cab be arsed to do the bare minimum of wearing a mask etc.

See, maybe I am an idiot but what’s the problem that makes people think we have relaxed too far?

It’s not an increase in hospital cases or deaths?

All we have is an increase in “cases”. A case being someone who has tested positive.

Pretty sure I saw somewhere that about 170,000 people a day are being tested in the UK. Many of these don’t have symptoms or have very mild symptoms.

The percentage of tests that come back positive is very low.

Months ago the hospitals were filing up and only a few thousand tests a day were being done - mainly of people so ill they were already in hospital.

“Cases” is a completely meaningless figure.

The mixed messages and Covid fatigue have led to people becoming a lot more lax.

There has been a distinct lack of strong and effective leadership by the Government, and Boris has been almost invisible.

Yep.

What they are essentially telling people to do at the moment is to take risks in order to benefit the economy, so you can and indeed ought to use public transport to get to work and make money for someone else even when you could very easily keep your risk low by doing it at home. Meanwhile, you can't have a birthday tea with your kid's 4 best friends in your house. Your happiness and wellbeing has to go down the priority list.

Now, this is going to be a hard sell at the best of times. It's essentially impossible when you have poor/absent leadership and a government whose members fell over themselves to justify a powerful individual breaking the rules. It was inevitable. We know very well how humans tend to behave in scenarios like this.

Hospitals barely cope with the standard winter flu season but many of these young fit people will inevitably pass it on to an older or sick person. I think we are right to be concerned about the impact in the NHS etc going forward.

People aren’t following advice though.

But it was the government who said they could rely on a mythical Great British Common Sense.