Surely they can’t keep schools open as normal if cases keep going up like today!

[Worriedmum999]

My daughter went back to school last Thursday. She really needed to go as lockdown played havoc with her mental health. She was fine doing her academic work but she is someone who needs the social side of school.

We are a vulnerable family and, with this shitshower of a government, I had no faith that cases wouldn’t rise and I wouldn’t be forced to take her out of school again. But I cannot believe that she has been back 2 days and the jump in cases has been so huge. I honestly expected us to be able to get to half term. Of course deaths are going to rise now. Why wouldn’t we follow the pattern of the other European countries. Add to that the fact that people can’t get tested now and we’re fucked. And I’m so fucking angry and upset about the damage that this is doing.

What are the government going to do? Surely it will be impossible to expect parents to keep sending their children to schools when the death toll is huge again and the ICUs are full.

Yes teachers may have to self isolate. I don't think anyone's denied that

So once the teachers have self-isolated, who will stand in front of the classes at school?

Schools pre-lockdown did not close because everyone was 'dying of covid'. They closed because teachers were self-isolating, and classes without teachers had to be sent home.

If you agree that teachers WILL self isolate, then it follows that some schools WILL close, because they will lack staff.

@TheKeatingFive

You know thousands of teenagers well enough to know that they'll not touch their face, they'll wear a clean mask every time they remove it and put it back on? You know that they'll dispose of them correctly? Nah. You couldn't possibly know that.

This is exactly the kind of situation where we shouldn’t let perfection be the enemy of good.

Sure, some will fuck around with them. But the cumulative effect of many people wearing masks (however properly) seems to be high. It is not seen as a big deal in other countries for this age group.

Exactly my point. It i the 'cumulative effect of imperfect mask wearing' that is important. Not the risk that some will be not as perfectly protected as they could be so we should pretend that it's no use at all.

@TheKeatingFive

You know thousands of teenagers well enough to know that they'll not touch their face, they'll wear a clean mask every time they remove it and put it back on? You know that they'll dispose of them correctly? Nah. You couldn't possibly know that.

This is exactly the kind of situation where we shouldn’t let perfection be the enemy of good.

Sure, some will fuck around with them. But the cumulative effect of many people wearing masks (however properly) seems to be high. It is not seen as a big deal in other countries for this age group.

A lot of things aren't a big deal in other countries it doesnt mean it's something we should start doing. I just don't think it's necessary, personally. I don't think it will keep teachers safe either I think it's all just a big "we're doing something' performance.

And anecdotally out and about id saying people wearing masks effectively are the minority, unfortunately.

@TrustTheGeneGenie as sure as they wear uniform I know that it would become a new routine. Bloody hell even my severely autistic DS with severe learning disabilities can keep a mask on. Of course pupils in mainstream school can be taught how to don and doff a mask. Of course they will touch their faces, it won't be perfect but it will be bloody better than it is at the moment for us poor buggers up the front with no protection.

@cantkeepawayforever

Yes teachers may have to self isolate. I don't think anyone's denied that

So once the teachers have self-isolated, who will stand in front of the classes at school?

Schools pre-lockdown did not close because everyone was 'dying of covid'. They closed because teachers were self-isolating, and classes without teachers had to be sent home.

If you agree that teachers WILL self isolate, then it follows that some schools WILL close, because they will lack staff.

Yes, for two weeks, not forever. And it doesn't need to be whole schools either does it?

I think there's evidence to suggest incorrect mask wearing can spread it.

That doesn’t seem to be the predominant thinking informing decisions everywhere else though. Whether that’s other public areas in UK or schools in other countries.

I’m sure UK teenagers are not unique in their level of ability to wear a mask.

@TheKeatingFive

I think there's evidence to suggest incorrect mask wearing can spread it.

That doesn’t seem to be the predominant thinking informing decisions everywhere else though. Whether that’s other public areas in UK or schools in other countries.

I’m sure UK teenagers are not unique in their level of ability to wear a mask.

Who knows what thinking goes into these decisions. Half of them make no sense at all.

A lot of things aren't a big deal in other countries it doesnt mean it's something we should start doing. I just don't think it's necessary, personally

But how close are you to the evidence (nicest possible way)?

We’re now at the point where they’re recommended virtually everywhere else.

@noblegiraffe

Definite klaxon gone out.

Thing is, if you throw teachers to the wolves, you might find you don't have any teachers. There already aren't enough of them.

And schools can't stay open, and kids can't get a decent education with no teachers.

Treating teachers well and keeping them safe is actually important.

We'd do a lot better if all teachers wanted to teach

There are many teachers out there who are absolutely brilliant and really want to get on with doing their job.

If this situation helps us get rid of the teachers who really don't want to teach, at least there will be a bit of a silver lining to compensate for all the kids thrown under the bus.

(But that is still not fair on those kids)
If you don't want to teach then leave -- and that goes for all that feel like this.

Yes it will cause a crisis, but then more money will have to be put into education (or we will go blended and half of you would lose your jobs anyway)

But ideally we may then get some decent teachers (like the majority out there) who put the kids first

@TheKeatingFive

A lot of things aren't a big deal in other countries it doesnt mean it's something we should start doing. I just don't think it's necessary, personally

But how close are you to the evidence (nicest possible way)?

We’re now at the point where they’re recommended virtually everywhere else.

And yet cases are still rising. Weird!

We'd do a lot better if all teachers wanted to teach

There are many teachers out there who are absolutely brilliant and really want to get on with doing their job.

If this situation helps us get rid of the teachers who really don't want to teach, at least there will be a bit of a silver lining to compensate for all the kids thrown under the bus.

(But that is still not fair on those kids)
If you don't want to teach then leave -- and that goes for all that feel like this.

Yes it will cause a crisis, but then more money will have to be put into education (or we will go blended and half of you would lose your jobs anyway)

But ideally we may then get some decent teachers (like the majority out there) who put the kids first

See, Marsha? The first hint of a teacher asking for improved safety measures and you get this absolute bullshit thrown at you.

That’s what the problem in this debate has been.

Yes, for two weeks, not forever. And it doesn't need to be whole schools either does it?

It depends, doesn't it?

Say 2 families in a primary school get Covid. One has 3 children, one has 2. That would close 5 out of 7 classes, straight off. You only need a coupe of extra people - perhaps a TA or PPA teacher who covers a number of different classes, and the school is shut.

Or a teacher gets it, and doe to lack of space has been less than 2m from 2 or 3 colleagues over the course of a couple of days - that's 3 or 4 classes closed. Then 3 more have to self-isolate due to local outbreak that closes a major local employer than they are household contacts.

It doesn't take a lot to close a school, because of the knife-edge staffing situation.

@RealityExistsInTheHumanMind the teachers that don't care have already left, why are you trying to goad those that want to make education safer for all and a better experience?

It's seriously worrying that dedicated, clinically vulnerable teachers are having their lives put at risk in this crisis. We need them! (quite apart from humanitarian considerations, of course)

"And what of EBM in all this? The deluge of studies on the previously little studied coronaviruses would point to a prodigious increase in knowledge, but only a few add to our understanding. Many are clearly 'me too' efforts where researchers need to have their name associated with the pandemic. A good example of this is the number of reviews of the evidence on masks published in the last three months – fifteen to our knowledge. Yet, the number of published trials on the effects of masks in Covid-19 transmission is – so far – zero."

Prof Carl Henegan & Tom Jefferson.

And yet cases are still rising. Weird!

And they’re predominantly milder cases with much lower hospitalisation and death rates. That could be about lower viral load due to mask wearing (among other things).

I just don’t get the resistance. They’re cheap and easy to administer. There are no major down sides. For the minute, why not use them in areas where SD is problematic?

@shinynewapple2020
*Children who are already known to Children's Social Care have been offered school places all along . The issue is that as these children are often in families nowhere there is Neglect , including neglect of education , only a small proportion of these children who have been offered school places have taken them up.

You also suggest that responsibility for these children lies with social services not schools . Where on earth do you think social services get their referrals from? If you believe this is through concerned friends / family this is very much in the minority, the majority of referrals to children's social care come from other professionals working with the family , and for school age children this is the school . If children are not in school then so much neglect and abuse slips under the radar as no-one is seeing these children*

1. on the neglectful parents who don't send the kids in when they could... why are they sending them in now? Why can't it be mandatory for them (eg linked to social services somehow?) to send it in when others can learn from home?
2. I know that schools refer most kids, but they are the starting point, they should not be the full solution. Or rather: they should not be the only solution.
3. I understand your concern that for kids who are not yet referred as they are likely to pass below the radar. But there surely has to be another way.... Risking all kid's long term health + their families because of the 17%* doesn't sound right.

*I made a very big and inaccurate leap of saying free meals=neglected child. I know this is not true, but I think referred to SS number of kids is much smaller but i don't know, so to be on the safe side I selected the bigger number. And free school meal is tied into income, so if not neglect, poverty might be an issue.... don't flame me for this (I get it for other stuff...)

Also there were those great studies that came out of Asia somewhere that analysed the spread in various real life environments. In the Starbucks one, virtually everyone got infected apart from the servers wearing masks.

Self-isolating teacher here

I won't get my Covid test results until tomorrow (today was my day off; I work 4 days). I got tested at the very first sign of a temperature, and drove 45 minutes to do so.

I said this on another thread, but the government have not factored in the effect that general (non-Covid) illness is going to have on the safe running of schools.

If I 'just' had a cold, I'd be in school. As it stands, I'm not allowed in school until I've had a negative test.

@TheKeatingFive

And yet cases are still rising. Weird!

And they’re predominantly milder cases with much lower hospitalisation and death rates. That could be about lower viral load due to mask wearing (among other things).

I just don’t get the resistance. They’re cheap and easy to administer. There are no major down sides. For the minute, why not use them in areas where SD is problematic?

Mmmm. Could be. Could be loads of other things too.

Because personally I couldn't force my teenager to do something I wouldn't personally be happy doing. I don't think they make for a comfortable learning environment. I think they make it much harder to focus and I think the benefit is probably minimal at best.

They're also not cheap at all if you're using them properly you'd need lots of reusable ones and a way to launder them regularly. If you used disposable you'd need potentially hundreds a month and they're not cheap.

I don't see how I can 'shut myself away' as an extremely vulnerable person as suggested upthread. If you saw me you'd think I was fit and well.

I have school dcs, university dcs, I'm meant to work with the public. Do I just not see my family and lose my job or can we all follow rules so that we all get a bit of a life?

I fear the answer is that many in here think I just shouldn't be seeing my family or doing my job.

Interesting study showed anti maskers have higher than average sociopathic tendencies. I’ll just leave that there.

@Oaktree55

Interesting study showed anti maskers have higher than average sociopathic tendencies. I’ll just leave that there.

I mean not sure what your point is because I'm in no way an anti masker I just don't think they have a benefit in classrooms.

@Oaktree55

Interesting study showed anti maskers have higher than average sociopathic tendencies. I’ll just leave that there.

I'm not anti mask wearing

I am anti primary school children wearing masks all day in school, which has been suggested here.

@TrustTheGeneGenie From where I stand (at the front of a classroom, how about you?) they bloody do! If they are hood enough for a quick pop to a shop they are good enough for an hour and a half in a room with me.