Surely they can’t keep schools open as normal if cases keep going up like today!

[Worriedmum999]

My daughter went back to school last Thursday. She really needed to go as lockdown played havoc with her mental health. She was fine doing her academic work but she is someone who needs the social side of school.

We are a vulnerable family and, with this shitshower of a government, I had no faith that cases wouldn’t rise and I wouldn’t be forced to take her out of school again. But I cannot believe that she has been back 2 days and the jump in cases has been so huge. I honestly expected us to be able to get to half term. Of course deaths are going to rise now. Why wouldn’t we follow the pattern of the other European countries. Add to that the fact that people can’t get tested now and we’re fucked. And I’m so fucking angry and upset about the damage that this is doing.

What are the government going to do? Surely it will be impossible to expect parents to keep sending their children to schools when the death toll is huge again and the ICUs are full.

But this winter could be a perfect storm too, if meds / food supplies are affected by Brexit. I have little confidence in this Govt's organisational or planning abilities as evidenced over the last 6m.
Yes, especially as they have resorted to needing a trade negotiator whose expertise is with Korea, Japan and other east Asia countries. So our trading prospects with our nearest neighbours and markets in Europe are so damaged now that this is where we are with Brexit.

@GalaxyCookieCrumble

I have lots of sympathy for lots of people throughout this, you know nothing about me or my background

However in my opinion ( and yes I am allowed one) the op needs to get some perspective here. And if she, or anyone in this country is not happy with what schools do, at any point in their child’s life, they are able to either move them or deregister and home school. And that is an option open to the op if she is going to get so hysterical

@Tomatoesneedtoripen

and *@TheSunIsStillShining* , tell me the plans for university? i do agree with what you have said.

What do you mean by uni? Admission or how to run?

A lot of uni subjects are theoretical, so -theoretically :)- they can be asynchronous learning done. And we are talking young adults who chose to do it, so they should be mature enough to actually roll with it.
The tricky part is the subjects which have material contact needs - medical, chemical, labs,...
Giving them more space won't equate to more equipment. And in many cases 1 equipment is used by many (eg super electron microscope).
And spacing that out so there are smaller cohorts in at any given time will have a knock on effect on staffing, staff hours, etc. I do think though that with careful planning and con't replanning it could be done to a good level.

My real problem is that the people who are supposed to be responsible for our kids (headtechers, governing bodies) are not taking the time to plan and they take gov guidance at face value - even though it is illogical and farcical at best.

I am a service designer, I look at processes/services, analyse the weak/best spots and come up with alternatives on how to maximize productions, make a better customer experience,...whatever the actual job is.
I would expect governing bodies to employ people like me to come up with a list of alternative process routes. I don't expect 32k headteachers to do it themselves as it is the most counterproductive method ever and soooo prone to mistakes.
But I don't see this happening and that is more than sad or infuriating.

@TheKeatingFive

get secondary school kids to online learning = more space

I still can’t believe the numbers of people on here advocating for 11/12 year olds to stay home alone for 40 hours a week or whatever.

Isn’t that neglect?

By that logic forcing them into a hazardous environment is then criminal negligence?

If I get sick and eg. can never work ever in my life again, will school/gov reimburse me for the rest of my life?
No.

And there could be lot of other options together with online learning

• small group sessions in school/non-school setting (park, outside) to help those who need it more

and that is just one idea.

I’m not 100% sure if details but Italy has apparently spent a fortune installing recording equipment etc in schools, for those who choose to stay home or if schools close all lessons apparently live streamed. Germany too I believe have invested a lot. The point is I don’t think the U.K. Gov really have much of a back up plan. It seems (whatever your viewpoint on face to face vs online) other European countries have given Education more thought.

By that logic forcing them into a hazardous environment is then criminal negligence?

But it isn’t a hazardous environment to them. Compared to usual.

Leaving 11 year olds home alone all day certainly used to be neglect, I have no idea why the posters on here have suddenly decided it isn’t.

If I get sick and eg. can never work ever in my life again, will school/gov reimburse me for the rest of my life?

There was always the chance that people would pick up something in their work environment that would affect them significantly. We can’t eliminate all risk for people. If they’re paid to do a job they have the option to quit that job if they’re unhappy with the perceived risk. As they always have been.

[quote FlySheMust]@Friendsoftheearth
If you read my original post I didn't suggest locking down anyone - you raised the subject. I was responding to that. I suggested everyone should restrict their activities to protect the large (not tiny) number of people who are clinically vulnerable.

Nowhere did I suggest closing the country down. Not sure where you got that idea from.

If, in order to protect others, you don't go to the theatre or a concert. Or you limit the number of people in shops, gyms and other leisure centres, then that is a very small sacrifice to make so that the others can move in society safely.

I can't see how any reasonable person would object to that.[/quote]

Isn't that what the current rules say though? I don't understand what you are suggesting.

I think there would be a good case under Health and Safety legislation soon as the evidence grows for aerosolised spread of C19 if staff members /kids suffer severe effects of Covid as a result of poorly ventilated classrooms. It’s on the cusp now and Gov don’t want to recognise the likely extent of airborne transmission as it will cause them severe problems.

@TheKeatingFive

By that logic forcing them into a hazardous environment is then criminal negligence?

But it isn’t a hazardous environment to them. Compared to usual.

Leaving 11 year olds home alone all day certainly used to be neglect, I have no idea why the posters on here have suddenly decided it isn’t.

If I get sick and eg. can never work ever in my life again, will school/gov reimburse me for the rest of my life?

There was always the chance that people would pick up something in their work environment that would affect them significantly. We can’t eliminate all risk for people. If they’re paid to do a job they have the option to quit that job if they’re unhappy with the perceived risk. As they always have been.

This isn’t how Health and Safety Legislation works. Do you have any idea how strict the legislation is in the U.K.? As soon as airborne transmission is proven definitively the whole guidance will change.

This isn’t how Health and Safety Legislation works

What isn’t how legislation works???

Are people looking for legislation to ensure they’re never exposed to infectious diseases now or something?

Because they strikes me as unrealistic.

That strikes me

Yes, anyone with moderate scientific/medical training knows it is airborne, much like other respiratory diseases, but why aren't they speeding up the vaccine process. There are vaccines that are modifications of existing vaccines that have already passed safety tests. They are so confident that the Oxford vaccine works that they have already started production of it in the millions of units. They would not do that unless they knew it worked already. The US seems likely to approve the Oxford vaccine before the UK does. Not that this is a vaccine thread, but just think how irrelevant all these arguments and concerns will become once we and our DC and the teachers are vaccinated.

Schools or workplaces will be liable yes if they don’t adhere to guidance to keep employees safe mid pandemic. It’s how Health and Safety works.

@Hereinthesticks yes banking on a vaccine I agree. You need to read Jeremy Farras piece in Guardian though re why an early vaccine will only be another tool. I’ll dig it out.

Schools or workplaces will be liable yes if they don’t adhere to guidance to keep employees safe mid pandemic. It’s how Health and Safety works.

And you’ll find lots of qualifying comments all over the guidelines like ‘where possible’ and ‘if practical’ just like every other job.

No one was ever guaranteed 100% safe working conditions in any job (particularly from infectious diseases).

amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/06/lets-get-real-no-vaccine-will-work-as-if-by-magic-returning-us-to-normal?__twitter_impression=true

The health and safety at work legislation was unable to protect the hundreds of thousands of doctors and nurses and other auxiliary healthcare workers who caught covid in March and April due to lack of or inadequate PPE. They were exposed to harm by their employers who failed to protect them. No-one is winning any compensation there though (although those individuals responsible for failing to stockpile PPE in January and February should certainly be prosecuted).

@TheKeatingFive it used to be part of my job actually so I think I’m better qualified to comment than you.

@TheKeatingFive

Schools or workplaces will be liable yes if they don’t adhere to guidance to keep employees safe mid pandemic. It’s how Health and Safety works.

And you’ll find lots of qualifying comments all over the guidelines like ‘where possible’ and ‘if practical’ just like every other job.

No one was ever guaranteed 100% safe working conditions in any job (particularly from infectious diseases).

It's not about ppl working in schools, but me as a mom to a boy who has to go into school. I don't think h&S covers that. And we're in a pandemic, so I think that qualifies as unusual circumstances

I would recommend you watch the first 20 minutes of this - Andrew O'Neill with Professor Carl Hennegan from Oxford University. It should give you some perspective.

tv.spectator.co.uk/event/the-week-in-60-minutes-with-andrew-neil

You may think that. It doesn’t make it true.

I doubt they scrimped on the lawyers input when drafting the guidelines.

It's not about ppl working in schools, but me as a mom to a boy who has to go into school

You are not obliged to send him in and never were.

Its the hospitalisations that matter..who cares if the cases are going up. They are testing people so finding it.

I haven't spoken to my GP about my mental health and how it's affected by the low level violence in my home under lockdown, because I can't arrange to be out of earshot and not responsible for DC for a 3 hour window (for fairly obvious reasons). No amount of asking reception for a specific slot got me anything better than "the doctor will call between 9:30 and 12:30."

I do think that perspective needs to be applied here. 2 deaths in a population of 66 million shows how far we have come.

We initially treated it, correctly so, as a very fatal virus. However, time has shown that the fatality rates are within the remits of seasonal Flu. Children especially are statistically safe.

As with anything, there is always a risk.

Non covid related heart attack deaths increased by 40% during lockdown.

The Lancet Oncology journal predicts an excess cancer deaths of 3,500 due to lack of resources and routine examinations.

The long term mental impact on children and adults is unknown, but I imagine it will be significant.

Then we start with suicides, abused partners etc

Financial poverty due to job losses.

Is the above really worth it for 2 deaths? Tragic as it may be, we need to add perspective.