Surely they can’t keep schools open as normal if cases keep going up like today!

[Worriedmum999]

My daughter went back to school last Thursday. She really needed to go as lockdown played havoc with her mental health. She was fine doing her academic work but she is someone who needs the social side of school.

We are a vulnerable family and, with this shitshower of a government, I had no faith that cases wouldn’t rise and I wouldn’t be forced to take her out of school again. But I cannot believe that she has been back 2 days and the jump in cases has been so huge. I honestly expected us to be able to get to half term. Of course deaths are going to rise now. Why wouldn’t we follow the pattern of the other European countries. Add to that the fact that people can’t get tested now and we’re fucked. And I’m so fucking angry and upset about the damage that this is doing.

What are the government going to do? Surely it will be impossible to expect parents to keep sending their children to schools when the death toll is huge again and the ICUs are full.

I think it highly unlikely all eight brought it in independently, expect one had it and now they have shared it in the workplace. If they opened a week ago that's enough time, asse one had symptoms and the others tested as contacts.

Goodness you're still talking about ventilators and you call me crackers?!

@epythymy er, yes, in response to your post about ventilators that's how threads tend to work?

@Badbadbunny but 16/17 year-olds are 1-2 years less mature and intellectually developed than undergraduates. They need those 2 more years of school education before being expected to be independent learners.
Anyway, whatever the age of the pupils, it is shocking that we are even discussing school closure while pubs, bars, restaurants, casinos, cinemas, holidays to Zante are still open without restrictions (in England), even in local lockdown areas.
In a country that would give fancy new fast reliable test kits to airports before the NHS...

Bad university students have lectures and tutor groups. At least I did. A lot of it was in person and discussion plus text books.

Low on screen learning back then. Even adults get screen fatigue. Your dc might be ok with it but many thrive on interaction.

There was a huge amount of difference between me doing say quantitative maths at university and dc stuck in a room doing further maths.

Even adults get screen fatigue and find endless zoom difficult and that’s not active learning just talking.

But it’s true it can be fast. However the threat to the economy and livelihoods is just as real so keeping this level of SD but businesses open appears optimal.

Agree the threat to economy and livelihoods is real, which is honestly why I can't believe they haven't put any money in to reducing risk in schools or even attempting to have some of the measures there are in other places (shops, workplaces etc). It seems it would pay for itself if it means more parents can stay in work and less need for local lockdowns / school bubbles closing.

Schools are back as normal and we're not 'keeping this level of SD' in school - there is no space for SD in classrooms in state schools.

My daughter's friends, who SD in June in school are now hugging out of school because 'we're all in a classroom together sitting right next to each other so it doesn't matter'. (for the record DD is not but she is feeling more left out and under peer pressure to just forget about SD)

Back pretty much to March behaviour in school (because there's not much alternative - we're back to handwashing only really) has a knock on effect - people seem to think 'well, why should I bother with SD when my kids can't SD at school'. Obviously in reality we should be taking even more care given the good environment for spread in schools but that doesn't seem to be how it works psychologically for most people.

Your dc might be ok with it but many thrive on interaction.

Exactly. We need differentiated responses. It's not normal times, one size fits all is stupid.

By forcing everyone in we risk closures.

If we force everyone online we risk problems of motivation, understanding.

Blended learning (my preference) stresses out working parents.

Maybe, just maybe we should understand people are all different and this bloody pandemic is not a normal time.

@EDSGFC
*But how much of the negative impacts are going to be down to poor management within the health service rather than lockdown?

My GP surgery is still not offering face to face appointments unless deemed absolutely necessary following a telephone consultation - however, the telephone consultation can occur at anytime throughout the day and I was on hold for 45 minutes just to get through to request a call. If they ask you to attend then it could be at any time so this really precludes people who are at work and have a commute or who aren't contactable at all times during the day. There are then going to be the signs picked up by GP during face to face consultations that might not have been the reason for the appointment and will be missed over the phone.

Then we've got hospitals - I'm under the care of two London hospitals. The first one I have three monthly appointments at. I have not been seen in person since December. My first appointment this year was the week of lockdown and that was changed to telephone. The consultant said he wanted to see me and that my next appointment would be f2f - it wasn't. Told the next one would be f2f - I got lost to follow up so have chased it and they've made it now for November (should have been September) - it's another telephone consultation. So that will be 12 months not being seen f2f, no blood tests etc - yet hospitals are currently quiet so we're told, so why aren't they seeing outpatients.

2nd hospital - urgent respiratory referral made in February. Didn't happen because of pandemic. Just received the appointment for next week. It's a telephone consultation - for a new respiratory referral. How does that even begin to work? But again, why? That's not due to Covid infections is it?*

How is this different to pre Covid times in terms of struggling to get a telephone call and being offered an appointment which is available rather than one that suits? Pre Covid we were always working at capacity, we would offer patients an appointment the same day if they said it was urgent and if they told us they couldn't make that particular time we deemed them not unwell enough to require an emergency appointment and they could therefore have a routine one or try again for an emergency slot the next day. That's fair enough? If you're able to work, go shopping etc. You don't need a same day slot.

Our surgery and all the ones I know are offering same day tel calls (better than pre Covid) and a F2F if necessary. I don't see the issue with that. For many patients it's a simple "I have X and Y" I know what that is and send them a prescription. Our nurses are doing full day F2F appointments including blood tests, vaccinations, pressure checks, dressings. As before.

I agree regarding your issues with secondary care and I think this needs to change. I am increasingly frustrated with the lack of service from secondary care and think there will be a huge reckoning but for now there's only Covid and complete and utter tunnel vision to this one issue. This is not, in many cases, due to consultants not wanting a return to normal service but typical bureaucratic red tape that has taken over. We must all be "safe". Even if that results in mass deaths.

@Kaktus

I am aware that not consuming or going out or travelling is bad for the economy, but at the personal level my only and main priority it my DC's education and mental health

Same. My kids are young. They’re perfectly happy wrapping up and going out for long walks/bike rides in the winter. I know that won’t work for everyone, but all I can do it my bit to limit interactions and reduce spread.

Same here too. We all consume (food, power, pay rent / mortgage) & 'add to economy'. But we can all pare back frivolous consumption again if needed (though it is very hard for those who work in those industries who suffer).

It may be needed again over this winter period to keep as many children in as many schools as possible and that frees up workers (mostly women) to keep working so is good for all.

But this winter could be a perfect storm too, if meds / food supplies are affected by Brexit. I have little confidence in this Govt's organisational or planning abilities as evidenced over the last 6m.

@ChanceChanceChance

Goodness you're still talking about ventilators and you call me crackers?!

@epythymy er, yes, in response to your post about ventilators that's how threads tend to work?

I'm quite sure I haven't mentioned ventilators

Oh, ok @epythymy

There was a post from you about ICU always being up to capacity.

@ChanceChanceChance

Oh, ok *@epythymy*

There was a post from you about ICU always being up to capacity.

Ohh you think everyone on icu is on a ventilator?!

[quote Hereinthesticks]@Badbadbunny but 16/17 year-olds are 1-2 years less mature and intellectually developed than undergraduates. They need those 2 more years of school education before being expected to be independent learners.
Anyway, whatever the age of the pupils, it is shocking that we are even discussing school closure while pubs, bars, restaurants, casinos, cinemas, holidays to Zante are still open without restrictions (in England), even in local lockdown areas.
In a country that would give fancy new fast reliable test kits to airports before the NHS...[/quote]
But bars and restaurants ARE being closed when they've been the cause of infections and also when the local council have concerns about lack of precautions being taken by staff/owners.

Likewise, schools are being closed when they have infections.

It sounds the same to me.

@MarshaBradyo

Bad university students have lectures and tutor groups. At least I did. A lot of it was in person and discussion plus text books.

Low on screen learning back then. Even adults get screen fatigue. Your dc might be ok with it but many thrive on interaction.

Most unis are going back online only for at least the first semester and some have said it's the entire year.

How is this different to pre Covid times in terms of struggling to get a telephone call and being offered an appointment which is available rather than one that suits?

Because pre covid I could phone up to book a non urgent appointment at a time that was convenient, or at least less inconvenient, for me.

So, I could phone up when I had five minutes free, or book on line (that's suspended now) I didn't have to clear best part of an hour to spend on hold. Then I just booked the appointment, I didn't have to be free for an entire day in order to receive a call and be within five minutes journey time of the surgery in case they said they wanted to see me and now.

Yes, if it's urgent then that's different but this procedure is for anything that we need to see the GP for. I shouldn't have to take the day off work just for a routine health matter.

Most unis are going back online only for at least the first semester and some have said it's the entire year.

Yep and let’s see if it delivers something as good as usual. Whatever it is, your claim that what secondary dc are doing now is comparable to usual university provision is incorrect.

I have no idea why you’d actively want poorer provision in schools. If your dc enjoy it more then you can take that as an option.

I think government is going to use this as an excuse to pare down the NHS. Why are they trialling an appointment system for A and E on the south coast? Presumably numbers attending A and E are rising, no doubt due to delays in secondary health care and lack of GP availability but rather than deal with that the NHS is planning on rationing A and E attendance?

@MarshaBradyo

Most unis are going back online only for at least the first semester and some have said it's the entire year.

Yep and let’s see if it delivers something as good as usual. Whatever it is, your claim that what secondary dc are doing now is comparable to usual university provision is incorrect.

I have no idea why you’d actively want poorer provision in schools. If your dc enjoy it more then you can take that as an option.

We're in the middle of a GLOBAL pandemic. Of course things aren't going to be as good as normal. It's all a matter of compromise. I don't "actively want" poorer provision in schools. But I'm realistic to know that "business as normal" isn't achievable at the moment, so we have to simply do the best we can. That's better than schools not re-opening at all, but not as good as non-pandemic times. No point looking at perfect world scenarios when that simply isn't going to happen this year.

@EDSGFC

How is this different to pre Covid times in terms of struggling to get a telephone call and being offered an appointment which is available rather than one that suits?

Because pre covid I could phone up to book a non urgent appointment at a time that was convenient, or at least less inconvenient, for me.

So, I could phone up when I had five minutes free, or book on line (that's suspended now) I didn't have to clear best part of an hour to spend on hold. Then I just booked the appointment, I didn't have to be free for an entire day in order to receive a call and be within five minutes journey time of the surgery in case they said they wanted to see me and now.

Yes, if it's urgent then that's different but this procedure is for anything that we need to see the GP for. I shouldn't have to take the day off work just for a routine health matter.

I would suggest your practice is not working in a way which is most effective. For us, our full list is just 10m slots for telephone calls. Reception book into a slot and the calls are usually performed in a reasonably timely manner, however, I'm sure you understand that sometimes this runs over. So you might have a wait to get through at 8am when everyone is trying to call but that has always been an issue for us. Then you will be told to expect a telephone call around a certain time. If I then wanted to see you after assessing you via telephone, I'd book you in in a later afternoon telephone slot as a F2F but would also tell you when this would be. We try to book the telephone calls in a morning first and leave the afternoon free and book any F2F appointments. We have found this to be working well for us and seems to be what most of my friends/colleagues at other practices are doing in this area.

Bad I did laugh at shouting the GLOBAL part of pandemic usually that tautology is fine alone .

Universities can do as they wish, atm my concern is for GSCE and A level students mostly. It’s important they are in school and not fobbed off with endless online lessons. So yes we should do everything to ensure they get access to it.

@epythmy I don't think everyone in ICU ordinarily is on a ventilator, but I thought ICU during this pandemic was full of people with Covid, therefore many requiring a ventilator.

So you might have a wait to get through at 8am when everyone is trying to call but that has always been an issue for us. Then you will be told to expect a telephone call around a certain time.

I started phoning at 8am but was continuously engaged. Finally got through and on hold at 8.30 and answered by receptionist at 9.15. I was told the Dr would phone me at some point during the day, would only make one attempt and I should be ready in case they asked me to come in because it could be straight away depending on availability.

Talking to friends and family at other surgeries this is pretty standard for surgeries here. At least mine is open to go in, my husband's surgery is still closed up and only telephone appointments available - other than that they are told to phone 111

@Friendsoftheearth

Schools won't close at a national level unless we reach the peak numbers of deaths and infection rates. It is more likely that local lockdowns and outbreaks will see schools close temporarily.

The next stage will be shield the elderly not close the schools.

If you have people aged over seventy in your family, you might like to suggest to them to start being much more careful now.

I agree with this

Schools will also be asking families to isolate if there is suspect Covid in a year group or class bubble rather than close the whole school

Unfortunately this will mean a lot of uncertainty for working parents .

I really can't understand the current push to return people to offices . If things are going well with WFH why do this ? I know the economy has been mentioned in terms of sandwich shops etc but this is likely to be counteracted by people accessing local businesses more .

@Shockingstocking
Yes, MH services should be for those who really need it and should not be occupied with entitled brats who can't cope with basic human life.

@Friendsoftheearth
I never said secondary kids don't matter!
One week in means that they are face to face accountable for what they have done in the online week. For many who would slack off in full online learning this will be a deferrant.

but I thought ICU during this pandemic was full of people with Covid, therefore many requiring a ventilator.

There's been a significant movement away from ventilating severe Covid patients - as other forms of oxygen therapy are more effective.