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Guidelines are paramount, or use discretion...your view and why?

77 replies

LilyJ85 · 28/08/2020 19:57

I've seen a lot of discussion lately around using one's own discretion when it comes to the government restrictions for Covid. So I just wondered how each of you see your responsibilities individually, as it's pretty fascinating and is also, unfortunately, causing a lot of disagreement between my family and friends! (and I expect many others)

A lot of people have made many sacrifices and, I can see how everyone has a different breaking point or feels that discretion is justified when it comes to the guidelines. In many people's view the rules are seen as too strict given the current prevalence of the disease and the low death rate. Hospitals are not currently struggling to deal with cases and the economy needs to get back on track. Indeed, many simply feel that there are certain social activities that they and their close family/friends are wanting to resume, that outweigh the health risks for said participants. Furthermore, everyone has different circumstances and whilst it might be extremely important for one person's mental health to socialise, or for their children to socialise, or for the family to see a sick relative, others may have less desperate circumstances.

My own philosophy is that generally, whilst a lot of the laws have now switched to guidelines, the principle is still the same in that we should be following the protocols, not for ourselves necessarily, but for the general population. These are rules laid down by a government that we (I didn't) democratically elected, and whilst we can all find inconsistencies in the rules or find fault in them/believe them to be too severe, we're all in this together just like we were in April etc. Rather than doing this because I'm a "sheep" or scared in any way of the virus, I personally think we all have a collective responsibility and the fairest way to play my part is to stick to the 2 households rule, 6 people outside, 2 metres distancing etc. I suppose my issue with the discretion argument is that if a few households are mixing or a party is held, and those people are comfortable with the risk between themselves, that does not take into account the risk the rest that the rest of the public is willing to take. So for example, the work colleagues of the people in question, other friends and family, the shoppers, staff, people on public transport, people in bars/restaurants they come into contact with, have not had a say in the risk taken. The more freedom some give themselves, the longer it may be until certain restrictions can be lifted, or the more likely it is to lead to a second wave, also, so I do think it can have a direct effect on others in more ways than one.

I'm open minded to everyone's opinion, and I definitely feel that whilst I "generally" agree with the above view, there are certain circumstances where rule nazi-ism isn't justified and common sense comes into play. However, I do think there is a spectrum and it feels from my own social sphere that many are now meeting up across multiple households either inside a home or at a pub/restaurant, without a sense of collective responsibility.

Is that justified because the guidelines are only guidelines and personal liberty is more important than submitting to "big brother"? Or is it not up to anyone to make their own risk assessment given the potential effects on others' freedom/health?

OP posts:
Waxonwaxoff0 · 28/08/2020 23:11

Me personally? I am following some of the rules but not all. I am not making my DS distance from people, as I have to work (can't WFH) and I'm a single parent so I need to use family to look after him while I work. I don't make him distance from family.

It's all very well and good looking out for the wider community but the wider community aren't going to pay my mortgage if I lose my job.

LilyJ85 · 29/08/2020 02:22

@Waxonwaxoff0

Me personally? I am following some of the rules but not all. I am not making my DS distance from people, as I have to work (can't WFH) and I'm a single parent so I need to use family to look after him while I work. I don't make him distance from family.

It's all very well and good looking out for the wider community but the wider community aren't going to pay my mortgage if I lose my job.

Completely understand, and to be honest I'm not sure that's even against the rules given you need family to look after your kids whilst you're at work!

I suppose I find it harder to fathom if someone is very loose with the rules whereas I don't see what choice you have when you're at work.

OP posts:
latticechaos · 29/08/2020 02:48

I think we should follow the guidance unless we have a good reason not to. There are people very vulnerable to the virus and even if I don't know them, they matter.

Nextity · 29/08/2020 03:09

The guidelines are poorly communicated, inconsistent and show little understanding of how people's lives actually work, particularly for women and children. The government choose to significantly undermine them with the whole Cummings saga and the random late night announcements.

I would describe myself at the cautious end/interested of the spectrum for various reasons. I don't really know what the guidelines say about meet ups etc. I have spent time reading up on risk factors myself and basically ignore the government view given the amount of u-turns and ridiculous statements.

I am happy that the risk I am taking is fairly low but I think technically against the guidance (?). We went on holiday with extended family from a few household and definitely didn't socially distance. No chance you would catch me on a bar or restaurant at the moment though.

I don't think it is unreasonable that those in a different position to me are making different choices.

If I was a student/in my 20s I wouldn't be feeling much obligation to following them, given how much young people have been impacted by the social/economic fall out for something that is such low risk for them.

Prettybluepigeons · 29/08/2020 03:10

I think the problem is that we are mammals and by our very nature, we are social.
Mammals that are isolated die sooner than mammals that are not. Even insects who live in groups of 10 or more survive better than ones that are in ones or pairs .

Asking us to distance ourselves socially seemingly indefinitely goes against our very nature which is why people are trying to make judgements about what they consider safe.
At the beginning when there was a very real sense of danger and threat, it was much easier to do so.

That sense of danger has gone now. The daily bulletins have stopped, the shops are open and we are being urged to go out to eat.

And yet there are still rules in place- it's no wonder our primal brains are going " wtf?????"

It also doesn't help that the rules are so illogical. Next week I can be in a classroom with 30 children and another member of staff but I can't have dinner with my mum, my brother AND my sister? How does that make sense?

The people in charge, who are MAKING the rules are interpreting the rules I'm their own way.

I think the majority of people are being sensible but the toll on mental health is going to be catastrophic.

yawnsvillex · 29/08/2020 03:32

I've now ditched all the rules, well I never really followed them anyway.

The incessant inconsistency from the government is enough for me to not take any of it seriously.

Back in March we were told to protect the NHS. It was NEVER overwhelmed.

The mental health and financial crisis that is going to follow is unforgivable.

The government have fucked up SO bad they're now begging people to go back to work and get their kids back in school after controlling the nation by fear. How can they expect people to comply with their constant u-turns?

Finfintytint · 29/08/2020 04:47

I’m so tired of all the rules. I’ve stuck to them. I’ve not seen my adult son since November and I know that when we meet next month I will give him a big cuddle regardless. It’s the same for my closest friend and her husband. We’re due to meet in October and I’ve had it with social distancing and we’ll take the risk.

Keynote1 · 29/08/2020 06:32

I am seeing my 80 year old dad today for the first time since February, he was shielding and I live 3 hours drive away.

Will be in the house but will SD as much as possible but I will want to hug him and I know he will want to regardless but I am thinking at the back of my mind that I shouldn't, he would be very upset if I didnt after all this time but I would never forgive myself if I passed anything on (no reason to believe I would)

I will be seeing my sisters who I haven't seen for months as well and have said I would rather do that in the garden, they have all been very careful but have been mixing indoors for the last month so they are a bit surprised at how anxious I feel.

I dont want to ruin the day by acting like a nervous wreck and treating my dear family like lepers but I am anxious.

My dad was very unwell with heart issues a few weeks ago and says at 80 he is not going to have anymore time distanced from his family as the three months he did were miserable and he felt a big percentage of whatever years he has left.

How would others feel re hugging?

Sockwomble · 29/08/2020 06:37

The guidance has always allowed for some degree of flexibility. For example at the height of lockdown the actual law was that you shouldn't be out without good reason and it was essential travel only but good reason and essential travel wouldn't be the same for everyone. The law was left like that for a reason. Without this there would be extreme suffering for some people. For example we were out for long periods on time in early lockdown and drove to where we were going. This was necessary to keep us and ds safe and allowed by law.
The aim has always been about maintaining social distancing and limiting contact with others but some people have had an obsession with non existent 'rules'.

TheoriginalLEM · 29/08/2020 06:46

2m distancing has become impossible where i live. Praise be for the cooler weather so i might be able to go look at the sea!

We mix households with my DD and her DP and my mum who needs care ( long story). Thats it, but we're pretty antisocial anyway so we dont see anyone else anyway.

I hate that i cant just nip in the pub on a day out, it has to be prebooked and its a whole new palava eating out. But id rather the restrictions be there than not.

I will most likely continue with masks for the forseeable and will often wear outside iftheres a lot of people. I wear one all day at work and i hate it. We cannot even maintain 1m distancing so it has to be.

Im genuinely scared of a second wave when winter comes.

latticechaos · 29/08/2020 06:48

Yes quite, some flexibility built in.

But a house party of fifty people is never necessary, and that is covered by law. As is quarantine. As is self-isolation. Yet all these are routinely ignored by people who.openly admit they do so.

I do find this surprising tbh, the extent of the non-compliance with laws.

HarryLimeFoxtrot · 29/08/2020 07:05

Any chance of people following the guidelines (as opposed to the law - no, they’re not the same) evaporated after the Dominic Cummings debacle. Government defence of the indefensible means that they no longer have any moral authority.

Sockwomble · 29/08/2020 07:11

There are exceptional circumstances where people can leave the house during quarantine or self isolation because again there needs to be some degree of flexibility to prevent extreme suffering.

Some people are idiots and they should be dealt with by the law but that shouldn't mean others have to be put at great risk when mitigating the risk is possible with no or very very little risk to others.

yawnsvillex · 29/08/2020 07:30

@Keynote1 How would others feel re hugging?

How would you feel if you didn't hug him, he won't live forever.

Will you be forever grateful you didn't hug your darling dad because you were told not to.

NOTHING on this earth would stop me hugging my family.

BillywilliamV · 29/08/2020 07:33

Just another " I'm the only saint following the roolz, let me tell you why the rest of you are bastards! " thread.

latticechaos · 29/08/2020 07:33

@BillywilliamV

Just another " I'm the only saint following the roolz, let me tell you why the rest of you are bastards! " thread.
Weird response. People can discuss things.
PurBal · 29/08/2020 07:43

I'm doing my best. However I went to a family wedding the other week and I felt really uncomfortable. I didn't want to go at all but when I raised this with the couple I was made to feel like I'd be ruining their day. So I went and only a few people sticking to social distancing. So I guess in certain situations I play it by ear.

RowboatsinDisguise · 29/08/2020 07:58

We’re being sensible but not sticking to the rules perfectly.

DS is 2, DH is no longer on furlough/WFH, we can’t really afford full time nursery (but the government thinks we can), it also seems utterly ridiculous that he doesn’t have to socially distance at nursery and yet supposedly can’t be cared for by family. So he is. Grandparents all fit and healthy, FIL is just 70 but the rest are well under 70, they are all happy with the arrangement. My grandparents are older and DS isn’t very social distance-y with them but as they’ve pointed out, they could die of anything, anytime at their age, so why miss out on months or even years of seeing DS.

We also went for more walks/exercise than was technically ‘allowed’ at the start of lockdown. We live rurally, and never saw anyone. It didn’t seem fair that taking a toddler for a short walk would have counted as our single exercise session for the day when we are both very active, sporty people.

Derbygerbil · 29/08/2020 08:01

Adherence to social distancing and other rules has become ever increasingly poor after high levels of compliance for many months amongst most, with the Government having lost much of its moral authority after the Cummings incident, and with little attempt since the rebuild that trust or engage with the public other than impose increasingly incoherent and inconsistent rules. I think things will unravel further as schools return and I’d be very surprised if we don’t follow a similar trajectory of those places who have or are starting to have a second wave.

latticechaos · 29/08/2020 08:01

@RowboatsinDisguise

I thought family childcare was ok, with social distancing where possible, which obviously wouldn't apply with a 2yo?

So that is within guidance.

loulouljh · 29/08/2020 08:02

Discretion...as the rules don't make sense, are inconsistent and have been changed for reasons not related to science at all. I have lost all confidence in the Government.

Ifailed · 29/08/2020 08:05

I tend to ignore the ones made up by politicians, but listen to those with some scientific basis, such as social distancing and mask wearing.

Keynote1 · 29/08/2020 08:20

@yawnsvillex

I do feel like that, but at the same time I am one of the people who has been pretty terrified to what my family call an unhealthy degree into total compliance. I would feel awful if I passed anything on to anybody, though I have been very careful.

Guess I will be giving him a hug though, months of not seeing him and not knowing what winter will bring with any further lockdown mean I don't know when I will get the chance again.

FinallyHere · 29/08/2020 09:16

Not impressed with the government's handling of the crisis and find the "rules" all very confusing and inconsistent. I suspect that anyone who claims they are following the rules are sticking to one variant of the rules and just ignoring the inconsistencies.

However, there is a global pandemic, I'm working from home, Ocado deliveries and keeping up with friends by teleconf and have only been meeting up with other people for walks outdoors.

More recently, We have hosted an individual friend or couple to a BBQ in the garden.

Today will be a test, the "rules" allow us to mix with one other household indoors We are currently discussing whether we are all happy for this to go ahead. We are basing this on what we know of the science rather than any arbitrary and inconsistent rules

I would much prefer a simple set of rules or guide lines from a government who could be trusted to make sensible decisions which would not be reversed as some many have been recently.

Jrobhatch29 · 29/08/2020 09:43

[quote yawnsvillex]@Keynote1 How would others feel re hugging?

How would you feel if you didn't hug him, he won't live forever.

Will you be forever grateful you didn't hug your darling dad because you were told not to.

NOTHING on this earth would stop me hugging my family.

[/quote]
My 85 year old grandmother tried to hug my dad a few weeks ago when he went round to check in on her. He backed away and said no. He said she looked so hurt and upset then when he was driving home he turned back and went and gave her a cuddle. She obviously needed it. I am going round to visit her tomorrow for the first time since February and taking my 3 month daughter (at her request, she is desperate to meet her) Smile