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Guidelines are paramount, or use discretion...your view and why?

77 replies

LilyJ85 · 28/08/2020 19:57

I've seen a lot of discussion lately around using one's own discretion when it comes to the government restrictions for Covid. So I just wondered how each of you see your responsibilities individually, as it's pretty fascinating and is also, unfortunately, causing a lot of disagreement between my family and friends! (and I expect many others)

A lot of people have made many sacrifices and, I can see how everyone has a different breaking point or feels that discretion is justified when it comes to the guidelines. In many people's view the rules are seen as too strict given the current prevalence of the disease and the low death rate. Hospitals are not currently struggling to deal with cases and the economy needs to get back on track. Indeed, many simply feel that there are certain social activities that they and their close family/friends are wanting to resume, that outweigh the health risks for said participants. Furthermore, everyone has different circumstances and whilst it might be extremely important for one person's mental health to socialise, or for their children to socialise, or for the family to see a sick relative, others may have less desperate circumstances.

My own philosophy is that generally, whilst a lot of the laws have now switched to guidelines, the principle is still the same in that we should be following the protocols, not for ourselves necessarily, but for the general population. These are rules laid down by a government that we (I didn't) democratically elected, and whilst we can all find inconsistencies in the rules or find fault in them/believe them to be too severe, we're all in this together just like we were in April etc. Rather than doing this because I'm a "sheep" or scared in any way of the virus, I personally think we all have a collective responsibility and the fairest way to play my part is to stick to the 2 households rule, 6 people outside, 2 metres distancing etc. I suppose my issue with the discretion argument is that if a few households are mixing or a party is held, and those people are comfortable with the risk between themselves, that does not take into account the risk the rest that the rest of the public is willing to take. So for example, the work colleagues of the people in question, other friends and family, the shoppers, staff, people on public transport, people in bars/restaurants they come into contact with, have not had a say in the risk taken. The more freedom some give themselves, the longer it may be until certain restrictions can be lifted, or the more likely it is to lead to a second wave, also, so I do think it can have a direct effect on others in more ways than one.

I'm open minded to everyone's opinion, and I definitely feel that whilst I "generally" agree with the above view, there are certain circumstances where rule nazi-ism isn't justified and common sense comes into play. However, I do think there is a spectrum and it feels from my own social sphere that many are now meeting up across multiple households either inside a home or at a pub/restaurant, without a sense of collective responsibility.

Is that justified because the guidelines are only guidelines and personal liberty is more important than submitting to "big brother"? Or is it not up to anyone to make their own risk assessment given the potential effects on others' freedom/health?

OP posts:
AlecTrevelyan006 · 30/08/2020 23:23

Tbh I’ve always viewed pretty much all rules about everything as guidance. So my approach to Covid has been consistent with how I’ve acted previously - I am content they my behaviour has been within the spirit of the law if not the letter.

Topseyt · 31/08/2020 04:20

@Keynote1

I am seeing my 80 year old dad today for the first time since February, he was shielding and I live 3 hours drive away.

Will be in the house but will SD as much as possible but I will want to hug him and I know he will want to regardless but I am thinking at the back of my mind that I shouldn't, he would be very upset if I didnt after all this time but I would never forgive myself if I passed anything on (no reason to believe I would)

I will be seeing my sisters who I haven't seen for months as well and have said I would rather do that in the garden, they have all been very careful but have been mixing indoors for the last month so they are a bit surprised at how anxious I feel.

I dont want to ruin the day by acting like a nervous wreck and treating my dear family like lepers but I am anxious.

My dad was very unwell with heart issues a few weeks ago and says at 80 he is not going to have anymore time distanced from his family as the three months he did were miserable and he felt a big percentage of whatever years he has left.

How would others feel re hugging?

My parents are elderly and in failing health. They both had health crises and non Covid related hospital admissions over the last few months and that means I have certainly reached my tipping point with all of these ridiculous guidelines.

I recently had to go and spend two weeks looking after my parents as my Dad was very ill. I didn't bother with social distancing in their house. I did hug them. Fuck the guidelines. People's feelings and mental well-being are important too.

As my parents are in failing health then I would never forgive myself if they died without me having given them a good hug while I still could.

Don't take this personally, it is just the point of view that recent life experiences have brought me to, but with regard to my family I am just so absolutely done with these fucking ridiculous guidelines. I will do what I like from now onwards and no government will dictate when I can visit or who I can hug.

Give your Dad a big hug. You would make him very much happier and that is sooo important too.

Aramox · 31/08/2020 05:12

It’s precisely because we’re returning to work/school that we need to keep other rules in place-it reduces overall risks as well as our individual risks. We’re sticking to the guidance and are also avoiding restaurants/indoor gatherings, for now. Hugging needy family though.

walksen · 31/08/2020 05:23

The trouble with individual risk assessments is that everyone has different tolerances , like the 2 chaps without masks who stood right behind me without masks in b and q yesterday and refused to SD because " it's all bollcoks m8".

Whilst I am out and about within the guidelines, I did wonder about the outrage from some posters on the thread about the non driving teacher worrying about the first day of schools and debating whether to get a test. "Surely that rule you don't break!". If we are ok with saying you can apply discretion and " common sense" then some people think my workplace is covid secure anyway so......

Uhoh2020 · 31/08/2020 05:49

I'll be honest I've no idea what the guidelines are now re bubbles and mixing households, however the only households i mix with are my DM&F and DMIL. All under 70 no medical issues. The DC are regular visitors at their grandparents not due to childcare because I've been made redundant but because they love going and get spoilt rotten and waited on hand and foot.
I dont encourage SD between the dc and their friends its not natural imo to play and interact like that and I can trust them not to start licking or kissing each other .
I've seen friends in the garden but not in each others houses

PhilCornwall1 · 31/08/2020 06:07

I have no clue what the rules/guidelines are, as to be honest, I'm not following them and haven't for a long time.

The government have made a complete mess of this and will continue to do so.

They are desperate to get everyone back to work/school/university, but it's backfired on them, as they frightened a lot of people to death and now can't get out of it, as for some reason, these people are still frightened to death.

I can't and won't subscribe to this cult of moral responsibility to protect others, My main concern for the future is job security and keeping the roof we have over our heads. I personally think the country is ruined and over the next few months, there are going to be some very big shocks for people. Others at this point in time are not anywhere close to being on my radar.

tigger1001 · 31/08/2020 06:30

I'm in Scotland so rules are a little different, and I will be honest I've no idea what they all are. We are not big socialisers and haven't had anyone in the house for months.

That said, in my own experience people are fed up. People are not honest with track and protect and say what they need to in order not to self isolate. And the guidance from track and protect seems to differ depending what person you speak to. We did the right thing, however quite a few didn't.

The guidelines are so contradictory. It's no wonder people are struggling to follow some of them

SnuggyBuggy · 31/08/2020 06:45

Personally I feel my world has shrunk to the point where I don't care that much about the wider community anymore. I was OK at first as I believed it would help prevent hospitals being overwhelmed but all those stories about people being sent back to care homes or 111 refusing to help made it seem a waste of effort.

Now I just feel resentful of all we've lost from our lives and my now poor mental health. As it gets colder I'm going to start meeting friends indoors and visiting family.

SophieB100 · 31/08/2020 07:16

I've used my discretion from the start. Have been aware of the rules/guidelines and never flouted them, but I'm an adult and am more than capable of understanding enough to decide what the risk is to me and others.
The guidelines are at best confusing, and at worse nonsensical. An example - I'm back in school Thursday and Friday for inset days. All colleagues have to access the training on line, in their separate classrooms rather than meet up in the hall (where we could sit a metre apart). Too risky apparently.
We have 'department time' which will also be directed on line.
But come Monday, I will see 90 students over the course of the day, from three different bubbles, with no social distancing at all. So, Friday - strict rules - Monday - no rules! I and my colleagues know it makes no sense at all.
Ho hum.

whiteroseredrose · 31/08/2020 07:22

I listened to Jonathan Sumption (just retired Supreme Court Judge) on the radio the other day.

He was explaining that he would be using common sense not sticking blindly to the rules. He also said that they're guidelines, so Cummings was not breaking the law with his trip to Barnard Castle. He was apparently using his judgement.

So I use my judgement too. I wear a mask when out, wash my hands a lot, use sanitiser whenever I enter a shop. I WFH so most weeks the only time I'm out is to go to the supermarket max 2 x a week.

We live just in Greater Manchester, 5 mins from the border with Cheshire. The rules here are bonkers.

If I want to have a coffee with my mum we can sit together at a table outside a cafe, surrounded by other people who we have no idea what they've been doing, but we can't sit in her large garden 3m away from each other.

So I've used my judgement. Neither of us go anywhere or do anything other than the supermarket. We are much safer having coffee at a distance in her garden than at a cafe - so that is what we do. Once a week on a Sunday.

Adwodeabo · 31/08/2020 07:27

We are following the guidelines. MIL and SIL aren’t. SIL currently isn’t speaking to me because she texted us a photo of our nephew with a load of other kids, MIL replied “how lovely” and I replied “he should be social distancing”.

walksen · 31/08/2020 07:32

"If I want to have a coffee with my mum we can sit together at a table outside a cafe"

Bad example though. The Guidelines in lockdown areas of greater manchester are that people from different households should not meet up at pubs etc. Your choice to ignore those guidelines but let's not pretend that they are actually different if you spend money.

It is entirely voluntary I suppose as establishments have no way of knowing who lives together etc and can't really enforce it anyway.

squeekums · 31/08/2020 07:34

I'm in south aus and no idea what the local rules are, nor do I care to look them up, corona is as good as no risk in my town, more chance of being bitten by a hibernating snake moving sheets of tin or wood piles.

I heard on radio today that our whole state has 1 active case.

I think it was last week I heard we could have 50 people in our house as of a certain day
We can go to the football with crowds
Dd will even get a school camp this year it seems

Darcydashwood · 31/08/2020 08:13

@walksen

"If I want to have a coffee with my mum we can sit together at a table outside a cafe"

Bad example though. The Guidelines in lockdown areas of greater manchester are that people from different households should not meet up at pubs etc. Your choice to ignore those guidelines but let's not pretend that they are actually different if you spend money.

It is entirely voluntary I suppose as establishments have no way of knowing who lives together etc and can't really enforce it anyway.

But in local lockdown in Greater Manchester you can meet one other household outdoors at a cafe/restaurant/pub. It’s only indoors at these places that are not allowed.

So the PP is correct that she could meet her mum outdoors at a busy cafe but not in her garden socially distanced - according to the guidelines.

walksen · 31/08/2020 08:17

So the PP is correct that she could meet her mum outdoors at a busy cafe but not in her garden socially distanced - according to the guidelines.

I stand corrected - clearly the government don't trust people to stay in the garden!

Tumbleweed101 · 31/08/2020 08:20

I’ve actually lost track of what the guidelines are meant to be now!

As a single parent I bubbled with my mum and brother (who live in same household) back when we were allowed to so I see them often. I also spend time with my work colleagues - in and out of work. But otherwise I’m not really seeing anybody else, wear masks where required, don’t go out much because of said mask wearing and keep distant from others when I do. Wash/sanitise hands where needed.

However as I work with young children all the other measures are pretty meaningless as I can’t distance with the children I work with so exposed to any risk they and their parents will have been exposed to.

Darcydashwood · 31/08/2020 08:22

@walksen

So the PP is correct that she could meet her mum outdoors at a busy cafe but not in her garden socially distanced - according to the guidelines.

I stand corrected - clearly the government don't trust people to stay in the garden!

That’s the crux of it I think. Clearly people like the PP who is having a socially distanced garden brew isn’t a problem - it’s the larger groups who don’t Socially distance or stay in the garden! But I agree with the PP - seems unfair to expect her and her mum to go to a cafe with the potential added risks compared to a much safer garden brew!
FlySheMust · 31/08/2020 08:26

It's disappointing how many people seem to care little for the wider community but put their wants before the guidelines for the safety of others.

The government have screwed up to be sure, but what can they do in the face of blatant defiance and selfishness?

Not a lot.

Frazzled13 · 31/08/2020 08:26

I roughly follow the guidance, and would always follow the law (which at the moment is quite different).

lljkk · 31/08/2020 08:51

I don't have an opinion. At least not about what others do.

It would be a hassle in my life if I had to self-isolate or quarantine, so I try to avoid people so I won't have to do those things.

Prevalence is very very low in county where I live, so it all feels a bit imaginary risk, I suppose.

Topseyt · 31/08/2020 09:19

@SnuggyBuggy

Personally I feel my world has shrunk to the point where I don't care that much about the wider community anymore. I was OK at first as I believed it would help prevent hospitals being overwhelmed but all those stories about people being sent back to care homes or 111 refusing to help made it seem a waste of effort.

Now I just feel resentful of all we've lost from our lives and my now poor mental health. As it gets colder I'm going to start meeting friends indoors and visiting family.

That is exactly how I now feel about it now.

Also, ABSOLUTELY NOBODY will be allowed to tell me anymore that I can't visit, mix with and hug my ailing and elderly parents. I am in the position where each time I see them alive could easily be the last so I am completely done with that bullshit. I wish I hadn't tried to subscribe to it at all back at the start of lockdown but I tried to be part of all of this "greater good" bollocks.

Never again.

ListeningQuietly · 31/08/2020 12:51

Discretion and judgement
because the politicians have no idea what they are doing
and the scientists disagree because its a new disease

PiataMaiNei · 31/08/2020 14:30

That’s the crux of it I think. Clearly people like the PP who is having a socially distanced garden brew isn’t a problem - it’s the larger groups who don’t Socially distance or stay in the garden! But I agree with the PP - seems unfair to expect her and her mum to go to a cafe with the potential added risks compared to a much safer garden brew!

It does, doesn't it? Which is one of the reasons why I, as a Greater Manchester resident still under the regs, refuse to comply with that one and instead choose the safer option of seeing family in our private gardens where we can be sure there will be proper SD and can vouch for the cleanliness of the toilets. I've also provided childcare for a relative who had no other options, and there was no fucking way I was going to do it outside in the park for 8 hours when it was raining and there are no bogs. If anyone thinks that's selfish and disappointing, they can go and fuck themselves.

Equally, there are a number of things we're being permitted, nay encouraged to do, that I haven't done and don't plan on doing for a while because I'm worried about safety.

So discretion, not guidelines nor even actual regulations. Post-Cumgate, this government lack both the moral authority and the competence to be in any position to tell me what to do.

Wishfulthinking1977 · 31/08/2020 21:39

I have absolutely no idea what the guidelines are any more? They have changed so often and become so conflicting I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing! All I really do now is avoid big shops as I am mask exempt and can't deal with the harassment! Apart from that I have no idea what's going on! I work with 2-4 others in close proximity dealing with more body fluids that will ever be exchanged by people in a shop or passing in the street and we still have zero deaths and zero cases since March even though our tourist town has been packed since lockdown was relaxed! I find the whole situation a bit weird but I feel I'm not allowed to question it just get on with my job and do what I'm advised without any real explanation?!

LilyJ85 · 03/09/2020 21:50

Hello all, just read all the responses one by one!

There was only response at first and I didn't expect the post to take off and I hadn't logged on - it's really interesting to see everyone's view.

I feel like moving more and more towards the discretion stance everyday given that's how I feel most are treating the rules, and I feel rather isolated and down, not being able to attend social events or allowing myself to see more members of my family. Then again, people have shown on this thread that there are still a large amount of us reluctantly sticking to the guidelines despite the inevitable inconvenience (or worse).

A lot of the responses have shown how tough it really is, especially with ageing parents and young children, both of which I luckily do not have to deal with right now.

I delayed going to see stay with my boyfriend in Wales for about 2 months due to the guidelines and most of my friends were saying "why don't you just go", I now almost feel like an idiot that I stayed in England for so long, waiting for the bubble rule to come in, in Wales. But I felt that despite being in a rather unique situation where I could have justified breaking the rules, it was right to not take them into my own hands, given others were making larger sacrifices etc.

Despite "wanting" to almost feel blase about things and just bloody do what I want, I have this nagging feeling that stops me, because I'd feel guilty if I did X. I'm not avoiding things to feel superior or have some moral high ground because believe me, it's not worth it. I suppose I just feel like what right do I have to break the rules, simply to socialise, if I believe that ideally we all shouldn't break them.

OP posts: