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Guidelines are paramount, or use discretion...your view and why?

77 replies

LilyJ85 · 28/08/2020 19:57

I've seen a lot of discussion lately around using one's own discretion when it comes to the government restrictions for Covid. So I just wondered how each of you see your responsibilities individually, as it's pretty fascinating and is also, unfortunately, causing a lot of disagreement between my family and friends! (and I expect many others)

A lot of people have made many sacrifices and, I can see how everyone has a different breaking point or feels that discretion is justified when it comes to the guidelines. In many people's view the rules are seen as too strict given the current prevalence of the disease and the low death rate. Hospitals are not currently struggling to deal with cases and the economy needs to get back on track. Indeed, many simply feel that there are certain social activities that they and their close family/friends are wanting to resume, that outweigh the health risks for said participants. Furthermore, everyone has different circumstances and whilst it might be extremely important for one person's mental health to socialise, or for their children to socialise, or for the family to see a sick relative, others may have less desperate circumstances.

My own philosophy is that generally, whilst a lot of the laws have now switched to guidelines, the principle is still the same in that we should be following the protocols, not for ourselves necessarily, but for the general population. These are rules laid down by a government that we (I didn't) democratically elected, and whilst we can all find inconsistencies in the rules or find fault in them/believe them to be too severe, we're all in this together just like we were in April etc. Rather than doing this because I'm a "sheep" or scared in any way of the virus, I personally think we all have a collective responsibility and the fairest way to play my part is to stick to the 2 households rule, 6 people outside, 2 metres distancing etc. I suppose my issue with the discretion argument is that if a few households are mixing or a party is held, and those people are comfortable with the risk between themselves, that does not take into account the risk the rest that the rest of the public is willing to take. So for example, the work colleagues of the people in question, other friends and family, the shoppers, staff, people on public transport, people in bars/restaurants they come into contact with, have not had a say in the risk taken. The more freedom some give themselves, the longer it may be until certain restrictions can be lifted, or the more likely it is to lead to a second wave, also, so I do think it can have a direct effect on others in more ways than one.

I'm open minded to everyone's opinion, and I definitely feel that whilst I "generally" agree with the above view, there are certain circumstances where rule nazi-ism isn't justified and common sense comes into play. However, I do think there is a spectrum and it feels from my own social sphere that many are now meeting up across multiple households either inside a home or at a pub/restaurant, without a sense of collective responsibility.

Is that justified because the guidelines are only guidelines and personal liberty is more important than submitting to "big brother"? Or is it not up to anyone to make their own risk assessment given the potential effects on others' freedom/health?

OP posts:
Derbygerbil · 29/08/2020 09:56

I would much prefer a simple set of rules or guide lines from a government who could be trusted to make sensible decisions which would not be reversed as some many have been recently.

I agree, or at least consistency. I think Sweden have got it about right - a proportionate response with a set of rules/guidance designed to be sustainable, and I say this as someone who hasn’t got an anti-mask “Covid’s just the flu” libertarian axe to grind. Frankly our Covid rules are a dog’s dinner that undermines the Government’s credibility, and that’s good for no one.

TheSeedsOfADream · 29/08/2020 11:19

I think so many people (if MNers are anything to go by) simply think the rules don't apply to them that discretion will never work.

TheSeedsOfADream · 29/08/2020 11:21

I do absolutely agree though that instead of 300 (seems like) woolly, illogical and over complicated "guidelines" if there were 3 or 4 rules that you follow, or stay out of other people's way, then there may have been more compliance and less confusion

TriSarahTops · 29/08/2020 11:33

I broke the rules when I went to see my parents. Because we’d already isolated for almost 14 days when the additional restrictions were introduced in Bradford (my parents don’t live in the city, but there area was covered by the restrictions). We completed the 14 days and went and stayed with them anyway (150 mile drive each way, so no stopping required). I don’t regret it at all.

Bettyboop3 · 29/08/2020 11:41

The rules make no sense and are totally illogical. We are being encouraged to go out and socialise in groups, unmasked, as eating and drinking, supermarkets have relaxed their restrictions and yet my daughter had to go in alone for her first baby scan. It's bad enough her partner missed out on such an exciting event but what if it had been bad news and she'd had to receive it alone?

TheSeedsOfADream · 29/08/2020 11:43

Yes, that's exactly the sort of thing Betty.
3 or 4 sensible but mandatory for everyone rules, with fines attached, instead of all this yes but no but daftness that people often transgress because they didn't even realise. Or guidelines that everyone can ignore.

AnnaMariaDreams · 29/08/2020 11:52

I am up to here with it today.
Our area is still in local lockdown due to the ward boundaries. If I lived less than a mile away I would be out of lockdown.
My tiny village isn’t the problem- it’s the large amount of dense back to back housing that is in the same council ward. They should be deciding it by map not by weird squiggly council ward boundaries!
My son goes to school- out of lockdown. I work- out of lockdown. The only friends (one household) who we would like to see inside if the weather is bad- out of lockdown.
The thing is I think many people won’t know which ward they are in and will assume they are out as all the surrounding villages are.
I have been careful, I wear a mask in shops, hand washing/ sanitiser etc but I am no longer prepared to stop my life and ruin my son’s happiness when the government can’t work out what they are doing.

OublietteBravo · 29/08/2020 12:05

@Bettyboop3 - my DD is 15 and had to go to her consultant appointment unaccompanied. Fortunately she’s familiar with the clinic and how to get there through the maze of the hospital. But I thought it was odd. Especially as she’s not allowed to sign the consent form (she had to bring it out to the car park and then go back in once it had been signed by a parent).

Sockwomble · 29/08/2020 12:13

There are some mandatory rules that have been around for several months in England like the one other household and 6 people outside rules but they are ignored by some and pretty much impossible to police.

It is difficult to have simple absolute rules that would be accepted, that can be policed and wouldn't that wouldn't cause extreme hardship to some people.

The actual guidelines are generally fairly clear and the exceptions are obvious when you read them but the problem is the bumbling way that Boris and pals presented/ presented them.

ChavvySexPond · 29/08/2020 12:30

We do guidelines + because we understand the limitations of the guidelines and the tradeoff between political reasons for relaxing the rules versus science and safety.

ChavvySexPond · 29/08/2020 15:07

We don't want to be the cause of increased spread which inevitably leads to people dying.

So we do all we can not to be.

ChavvySexPond · 29/08/2020 15:13

Taking personal responsibility for the consequences of our actions is an important principle for us.

As are patriotism and civic responsibility.

Plus a positive, "can do" attitude, and doing our best.

And telling the truth, facing the facts and deal with problems head on, rather than avoiding them and letting them build into something worse.

This is how we have brought up our family, and it informs all of our actions.

Mintjulia · 29/08/2020 15:21

I'm a single parent with 12yo dc.

Since March I've met with two friends (separately) in my garden and theirs. I've held a birthday tea for ds and two of his friends and I've visited one member of my family to stay when she hurt herself.

So I suppose the family member could be my support bubble which means we've had three other households visit us at home.

I've no idea if I've broken the rules - we aren't in a lockdown area - but I think I've exercised due care. We haven't eaten out, we still practice SD and hand hygiene and I only go food shopping once every 10 days, with mask.

I am happy we've done our best and don't intend to beat myself up if I've got one of the numbers wrong.

Malteserdiet · 29/08/2020 15:39

I want all of us to be able to use our own discretion. The scientists or governments can continue to provide the facts and some guidance but then leave me to be an adult and make my own mind up together with anyone else I arrange to meet up with.
If you don’t now know more about how viruses spread and how to avoid getting them or who it would be dangerous to spread them to then where have you been? Just like if one of my children had chicken pox I would stay away from the elderly and immune suppressed, I would now stay away from the same groups if any of the family had any symptoms of Covid. I know it can be asymptomatic but there’s risk in every manner of human activity and it is important to continue living rather than existing in constant fear. I know that many on here will disagree with me and tell me that’s selfish and that if everyone did as they pleased then it could all get out of control. However, with the amount of fear that appears to still be in existence and also with the continuous failure for there to be the predicted spike in deaths following VE Day, packed beaches, BLM protests etc I honestly don’t think that will be the case.

SockYarn · 29/08/2020 15:43

Discretion.

DD is having a BBQ for her birthday tomorrow. "Rules" say 15 people from 5 households outside. We're allowing 12 people from 7 households.

Because all the kids coming are at school everyday, inside. And I fail to see how allowing them to congregate in our garden for a couple of hours presents any risk whatsoever.

latticechaos · 29/08/2020 15:47

@SockYarn

Discretion.

DD is having a BBQ for her birthday tomorrow. "Rules" say 15 people from 5 households outside. We're allowing 12 people from 7 households.

Because all the kids coming are at school everyday, inside. And I fail to see how allowing them to congregate in our garden for a couple of hours presents any risk whatsoever.

The key question here is will you be distancing?

If not distancing, then this is the sort of event that potentially leads to school.closures, if you are distancing it'll likely just be a small breach of guidelines.

SockYarn · 29/08/2020 15:50

I won't be enforcing distancing for the children. They are not distancing at school either. These are all kids (aged 13 to 15) who mix 6 hours a day at school, inside. They will be doing what teens do, chatting and filming those daft tiktok dances.

4 hours outside is no additional risk to school.

SockYarn · 29/08/2020 15:51

Oh and the adults (me and her dad) are banished to the house apart from when the cooking is being done. Parents at a party are just cringe. Hmm

latticechaos · 29/08/2020 15:55

@SockYarn

I won't be enforcing distancing for the children. They are not distancing at school either. These are all kids (aged 13 to 15) who mix 6 hours a day at school, inside. They will be doing what teens do, chatting and filming those daft tiktok dances.

4 hours outside is no additional risk to school.

If they are 13 to 15, aren't they in different year group bubbles?

Im not going to get on my high horse about anything, but if it crosses bubbles or normal classes, it is additional risk.

It also is more time in a less supervised environment.

I think we are in a bit of a mess as in-home contact is now a key driver, but also is something people are very tired of not doing.

latticechaos · 29/08/2020 15:56

By in-home, Imran in a domestic setting, rather than public place.

SockYarn · 29/08/2020 16:04

The two younger ones are siblings - so 10 from one year group, two younger siblings who are in the same year group.

SockYarn · 29/08/2020 16:05

And I have told them that if it rains they all have to go home as I draw the line at them brewing in the house.

latticechaos · 29/08/2020 16:09

@SockYarn

And I have told them that if it rains they all have to go home as I draw the line at them brewing in the house.
I probably better shut up now then Wink

But you see it feels a minefield, as we are all a bit different - and normally I am not judgey, and even with covid I'm not judgey but I am worried because what each does then affects the whole.

I'm tired of it really.

SockYarn · 29/08/2020 16:21

Tell me about it. All my kids have had birthdays in lockdown, we've missed holidays, all the joy has been sucked out of life by masks, hazard tape and the "rules".

It's got to the stage where we're making our own judgement rather than blindly following what Saint Nicola Sturgeon of Covid has to say.

(

FraterculaArctica · 30/08/2020 22:51

We are about to fall out with family over this by refusing to go to DF's 75th birthday picnic. DH and I are of the view that it is important to follow the guidance as far as possible, because if everyone did the same it would massively improve the situation in the country. However DB is trying to organise a birthday picnic for DF at which there will be 4 different (socially distanced) households, with a total of 13 people. It is going to cause a lot of ructions when we say we won't go.

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