Why not masks for all in secondary schools ?

[countryroses]

Why not ?

@ineedaholidaynow

His school have stipulated that all children need to bring in a wipe clean sealable container/bag for all used reusable masks. There will be hand sanitiser and bins where they get off the bus. Lessons are to be provided for pupils who are not doing it right.

Staff and pupils are allowed to wear masks during the day if they want.

That's all well and good, but hospitals have trained staff whose jobs it is to deal with infection control equipment like masks and even then infection control doesn't work. I suppose looking at it from my experience it just seems utter madness to think teenagers who are enjoying being with their friends and getting on with schoolwork will do anything near what's really needed to make masks effective because it's very complex and difficult and even trained surgical staff don't always get it right. At the very best it's just play acting, pretending that safety measures are being taken, but at worst it actually increases the risk of infection, which is the bit that bothers me.

I suppose it will be interesting to see if there are more outbreaks in schools in other countries where masks are being worn than in countries where masks aren't.

@ineedaholidaynow

I suppose it will be interesting to see if there are more outbreaks in schools in other countries where masks are being worn than in countries where masks aren't.

It would, although there would be so many variables involved - level of infection in the community, extent of other lockdown measures etc that it'd be hard to separate out the effect of masks from everything else.

I have a hearing impaired son, who at times struggles to follow conversations in class. With masks I hate to think of the impact on his education and him socially.

@TheDailyCarbuncle yes other variables are important to consider but wait a minute....the government wouldn’t care about that if the data supported what they want everyone to believe. Only need to look to the PHE study into transmission in schools in June to see that!

I think the thorough handwashing could be your stumbling block there carbuncle.

[quote CKBJ]@TheDailyCarbuncle yes other variables are important to consider but wait a minute....the government wouldn’t care about that if the data supported what they want everyone to believe. Only need to look to the PHE study into transmission in schools in June to see that![/quote]
I'm sorry I'm not sure about what you're referring to here.

@SaltyAndFresh

Really sad situation for the ones who want to learn in a classroom here where the teacher is scared to be filmed because of their crap behaviour management.

More poison from the despicable @lifeafter50, who's on a cushy number in an independent school. The parents of your pupils can afford to pay and that filters out the really damaged children, but well done you on being so much better than all the rest of us out together.

Even more ironic if it comes from someone who couldn't hack it in the state system after a couple of years and therefore had to run away to the private sector.

@TheDailyCarbuncle

If you're wearing an ordinary cloth mask or a basic surgical mask, the outside of your mask will end up just as covered in whatever you're breathing out as the inside. Essentially the outside of a mask of an infected person is a petri dish of infection.

But isn't the point that masks stop droplets becoming airborne, so that others don't breathe it in? I.e., the droplets from coughs etc are trapped in the mask. Genuine question. I ask because in the classroom I can use hand sanitizer to avoid infection through touching infected surfaces, but I have no protection against breathing in airborne particles etc. I'm assuming masks help to limit infection in this way, hence their use is advocated pretty much everywhere now APART from in English schools?

In theory, yes, but the downside of that is that a simple cloth mask will get damp across the day, from coughing, dripping from the nose and breathing. If the person touches their mask (which they definitely will at some point) they're touching a highly concentrated soup of infected spit which they can then transfer to surfaces or other people. That's why masks may be useful on public transport or in a shop where you're just standing/sitting near someone for a limited period of time - if you cough you won't cough on that person - but when you're with someone for hours a day and you're wearing the same mask the mask may actually increase the chances of transmission by providing a highly concentrated infection point. If people are vigilant about coughing/sneezing into a tissue, which they then throw away, that's likely to be more effective, given that masks don't stop vapour from the person's breath anyway and so don't provide much protection wrt normal interactions (speaking, laughing etc.). The issue really is that teenagers are very unlikely to use masks in the correct way - in fact, most people are unlikely to use them correctly, seeing as that involves quite an elaborate process of putting them on and taking them off, using aseptic techniques. Without proper care, a mask just becomes a dirty piece of cloth that gathers infectious liquid from the main point of transmission - the nose and mouth.

My solution for schools is to encourage good hygiene, especially thorough handwashing and make regular testing available to catch any outbreaks as early as possible. Beyond I think everyone will have to finally accept that there's a virus going around and that life has to continue at some point - constant focus and fear over one single risk isn't sensible or sustainable long term.

We can encourage good hygiene allow.e like, bit we can't get 1250 students through the toilet blocks every lesson changeover to wash their hands. We're fucked, so can you please just allow us the psychological refuge of face coverings?

@SaltyAndFresh

My solution for schools is to encourage good hygiene, especially thorough handwashing and make regular testing available to catch any outbreaks as early as possible. Beyond I think everyone will have to finally accept that there's a virus going around and that life has to continue at some point - constant focus and fear over one single risk isn't sensible or sustainable long term.

We can encourage good hygiene allow.e like, bit we can't get 1250 students through the toilet blocks every lesson changeover to wash their hands. We're fucked, so can you please just allow us the psychological refuge of face coverings?

As I said earlier, I'm fine with it being a psychological refuge, except for the fact that it could be making things worse, which surely is the opposite of what you want?

What I want is to be able to work in a reasonably safe environment but as that's not going to happen, I'll take the masks.

@TheDailyCarbuncle

In theory, yes, but the downside of that is that a simple cloth mask will get damp across the day, from coughing, dripping from the nose and breathing. If the person touches their mask (which they definitely will at some point) they're touching a highly concentrated soup of infected spit which they can then transfer to surfaces or other people. That's why masks may be useful on public transport or in a shop where you're just standing/sitting near someone for a limited period of time - if you cough you won't cough on that person - but when you're with someone for hours a day and you're wearing the same mask the mask may actually increase the chances of transmission by providing a highly concentrated infection point. If people are vigilant about coughing/sneezing into a tissue, which they then throw away, that's likely to be more effective, given that masks don't stop vapour from the person's breath anyway and so don't provide much protection wrt normal interactions (speaking, laughing etc.). The issue really is that teenagers are very unlikely to use masks in the correct way - in fact, most people are unlikely to use them correctly, seeing as that involves quite an elaborate process of putting them on and taking them off, using aseptic techniques. Without proper care, a mask just becomes a dirty piece of cloth that gathers infectious liquid from the main point of transmission - the nose and mouth.

Thanks for answering.

It seems that masks would be beneficial then? If an infected person sneezes/coughs without one, (and children are unlikely to capture their sneezes in a tissue & dispose of them) droplets are flung everywhere and can potentially infect multiple surfaces or indeed others may breathe them in, whereas when wearing a mask they are captured. Yes, the mask is then covered in virus but then it poses a risk through surface transmission, a risk we can then control more easily through cleaning surfaces/hygiene (again, this is something I can control this to some extent - but I can't control the air I breathe).

Can I ask if one is asymptomatic, and they wear a mask, will the mask reduce the risk? That is, will it reduce the risk of transmission of particles emitted through normal breathing?

From what I've read, very little is known about asymptomatic transmission - I think it's disputed whether asymptomatic carriers can infect others at all, so it's hard to say what a mask will do in that circumstance.

If an infected person sneezes or coughs into the air, then there's a period of time when droplets are suspended in the air and others can breathe them in. That requires the person to be close by, air not to be moving very much etc. so it's quite a limited window. If a person sneezes/coughs into a mask they're wearing on their face, the infection is on the cloth and they're wearing that all day. If spit/snot gets on the mask (which it will if they're wearing it for hours) and they touch the mask then touch someone else, a door handle which someone else touches etc they've basically concentrated the infection and spread it. You can in theory control that but only if you're infecting everywhere they've touched after they've touched it.

Essentially it gets into crazy details. What it comes down to is that you can take some sensible precautions to slightly reduce risk but a highly contagious virus spreads, and there's not a huge amount you can do about that. I feel for teachers that they've been made to feel this is so huge and difficult and that they have to take complicated precautions etc. Chances are you and everyone in your school will be fine. Yes, there is a risk, but the risk is small. Please don't worry too much.

Thanks for all of this @TheDailyCarbuncle it's really interesting.

So why do other countries mandate masks either/both for everyone outside home, and / or for children within schools?

@AugustBreeze

Thanks for all of this *@TheDailyCarbuncle* it's really interesting.

So why do other countries mandate masks either/both for everyone outside home, and / or for children within schools?

Basically because there isn't agreement about effective they are. From what I can see a lot of the pro-mask argument is political. You can't tell people that a virus is deadly and that their economy has to be destroyed, then turn around and say 'oh actually, everyone has to go back to work and school' without putting some sort of measure in place to reassure people that they're being 'kept safe' - whether masks are safe or not, they make people feel safe, so that's why they're recommended.

Anders Tegnell in Sweden goes so far as to say mask wearing is dangerous and absolutely refuses to recommend it for Sweden on the basis that it gives people a false sense of security which then may increase the infection rate.

The fact of the matter is, if you want to 100% avoid getting covid, you have to stay at home and have contact with nobody. If you go out in the world and interact with other people, there is a risk, unless you wear a full hazmat suit with piped air at all times. Masks may help, they may not, who knows. Even if you do get covid you have a very good chance of being absolutely fine. So wear a mask, don't wear a mask, whether it makes a difference or not is hard to say. There isn't a huge amount of evidence that it will benefit you, but if you feel better then maybe you should go ahead. Just be aware that you may be actually increasing your infection risk (depending on the situation). Even if that's the case, you may still never get covid, or if you do get it, you'll probably be fine. So don't stress too much.

Yes but Anders Tegnell wants people to catch it for his policy of “herd immunity” - you can’t seed the herd with infection if they’re masked up.

From what I've read here, the effectiveness of masks is really up for debate - there are arguments on both sides so no-one can categorically say that they are a waste of time.

Even if there is a chance that they could help limit infection in schools, then they should be used.

Something is better than nothing.

One man infected 27 people in a coffee shop in South Korea. No staff were infected - they were wearing masks
www.polishnews.co.uk/south-korea-an-outbreak-of-infections-in-a-coffee-shop-employees-are-healthy-because-they-wore-face-masks/

@mac12 there was a similar story regarding a hair salon where infected stylists wore masks and didn’t pass it on.
www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/health/coronavirus-hair-salon-masks.html

I think it’s a good idea for kids to wear masks in school. It would be a good idea for kids to have two so they can put a clean one on after lunch. Wash them when they get home

Or is could be because the main sat on the restaurant with customers for couple hours and limited contact with staff? Under the 15 minutes defined?

Masks shouldn’t be compulsory for kids until they’re compulsory for adults at work

Adults choose to go the shop and as such wear masks

Kids have no choice in school

Hopefully Boris will be rational

Vinoonasunnyday

Children or at least their parents have a choice to send their children to school.

Education is mandatory, school is not.

And there are far too many parents that think that school rules do not apply to them or their children.

Masks are next to useless. Get rid of them. We don't need them.If the staff are not wearing them why the hell should our school children wear them.
The world's gone mad.