Why not masks for all in secondary schools ?

[countryroses]

Why not ?

Dds school just emailed to say they recommend kids wear masks all day in lessons and walking round

So for the kids getting buses it’s 9 hour day in a mask

Bloody joke

Luckily it’s recommendations for now

Why is keeping everyone safe (or trying to) a bloody joke

@Piggywaspushed

Why is keeping everyone safe (or trying to) a bloody joke

I don't think people really understand the purpose of masks, or how they actually work. In the operating theatre, surgeons wear a sterile mask, to prevent liquids, (mainly any dripping from their nose or mouth) from their face reaching the patient. Even with surgical masks, vapour from the surgeon's mouth gets through and can in theory infect the patient. They are a fairly weak stop-gap that's better than nothing. Given that the entire environment in a surgery is sterile, they are one small part of infection control. People taking the same mask on and off, touching it, putting it in their pocket, wearing it too loosely, moving it to eat and drink etc, in a situation where the environment is very far from sterile, where they're chatting to friends moving around, touching their face etc, are reducing the overall risk by a very very tiny amount and in fact there is evidence that they could be increasing their risk, as they could be gathering infected vapour on the outside of their mask, then touching it or getting it near their mouth - providing a direct line for infection. The only way to completely avoid infection is by wearing a full hazmat helmet where you breath clean air from a tank/filtered air and the air you breathe out is filtered. A loose cloth mask that you can pull up and down with gaps at the side is such a weak safety measure it's practically pointless and when used incorrectly, as most people do, by touching it, pulling it down now and again, etc, it can be actively detrimental. Essentially you're making life hard and uncomfortable for people for no real reason other than to give the impression of being 'safe' when in fact you're doing very little at all.

@TheDailyCarbuncle it seems that people will be happy with this
All i hear is cry for masks in schools and would be really good if some scientific advisors looked into wearing for 8 hrs etc and advised on risk for or against
It seems to give people a visual sense of action being taken
Funny as i see a lot in masks but who walk past the hand sanitiser at front of shop, people don’t understand a variety of measures are needed

[quote Notfeelinggreattoday]@TheDailyCarbuncle it seems that people will be happy with this
All i hear is cry for masks in schools and would be really good if some scientific advisors looked into wearing for 8 hrs etc and advised on risk for or against
It seems to give people a visual sense of action being taken
Funny as i see a lot in masks but who walk past the hand sanitiser at front of shop, people don’t understand a variety of measures are needed[/quote]
If an infected person wears a mask for 8 hours, by the end of the day that mask will be pretty much soaked in infected spit. Essentially, it's the perfect source of infection - if another child touches or accidentally uses that mask they have a very high chance of infection.

Masks give people a false sense of security. If they were harmless I'd say go ahead, do it if it makes you feel better. But given that they can not only be useless but harmful, I think on balance there isn't any good reason to use masks in schools.

Your qualifications are?

I'm a researcher and one of the things I've looked into is safety measures for the control of infection in hospital settings. What I'm saying about masks doesn't require a qualification (though I do have qualifications) it is just a fact about how they work and it is well known among people who work in infection control. Infection control is incredibly hard - even when you have extremely strict measures in place in highly controlled settings like operating theatres, infections still get passed on. The idea that bunch of teenagers wearing masks for hours at a time, mostly incorrectly, will actually do anything useful isn't supported by any research at all.

During lockdown, one of the places you were most likely to get infected with covid was in hospital - a place where everyone is very aware of infection control, great care was taken to prevent cross-contamination etc. Essentially there is only so much you can actually do to prevent a highly infectious virus being passed on. Masks don't really cut it.

The Scottish Government are proposing that Secondary School children and teachers wear masks while moving around schools.

Breaking news: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53888479

@TheDailyCarbuncle

During lockdown, one of the places you were most likely to get infected with covid was in hospital - a place where everyone is very aware of infection control, great care was taken to prevent cross-contamination etc. Essentially there is only so much you can actually do to prevent a highly infectious virus being passed on. Masks don't really cut it.

I do agree with some of your points particularly the wearing of a mask for a long time reducing its effectiveness. But your point about hospitals where covid was rife despite the great care taken with infection control is not true. At the early start of the pandemic UK hospitals were unaware of who had covid - both patients and staff. There was no testing leading to new patients infecting existing patients and vice versa. There was no SD and no PPE in many wards. It is now that regular testing and sd together with widespread use of PPE that infection is under control.

Sorry but the only reason useless cloth masks are in use anywhere is to appease the worried well

Those with completely unfounded health anxiety making the rest of use suffer

Masks are to increase confidence so the worried get out more

Shops here in England opened initially without masks but the footfall was 90% lower compared with this time last year

So masks came in within week or two - that’s the only reason why

@Vinoonasunnyday

Sorry but the only reason useless cloth masks are in use anywhere is to appease the worried well

Those with completely unfounded health anxiety making the rest of use suffer

Masks are to increase confidence so the worried get out more

That is your opinion which you are entitled to. There have been scientific studies that prove the effectiveness of masks being worn in reducing transmission particularly in enclosed areas.

I agree that there was a lack of knowledge about who had covid and who didn't at first @mrshoho but even when measures were put in place and PPE was used, infections still spread within hospitals. They spread at a much lower rate, but they still spread. My point was that even in a situation with high rates of testing, good knowledge and measures around infection control etc infections still spread (and are still spreading at the moment, again, at much lower rate) and that the expectation that a measure like poor mask wearing among teenagers will make much difference isn't realistic.

A friend of mine who's a doctor commented the other day that while the office he shares has spaced out desks and they wear masks all day, they regularly hand phones to one another, mid conversation, without wiping the phone off. That's among healthcare professionals who completely understand the risks. In real life, when everyone is getting on with it, measures make only a small amount of difference. You can make teenagers wear masks but that doesn't mean they'll actually have any real effect.

So what about countries where wearing masks is more common, is that just a waste of time, or does it help to curb the spread of viruses? I know in some countries it would be rude to go out without a mask if you have a cold.

@Oldbutstillgotit

The Scottish Government are proposing that Secondary School children and teachers wear masks while moving around schools.

There’s still no evidence that masks worn in this way will make children and teachers more or less safe.

Masks have benefit but only if used properly and in the right situations. They are not meant to be taken on and off. This is akin to handling your underwear throughout the day.

If you're standing in a crowded train, wearing a mask may prevent you from passing on a cold/covid to the few people around you, because you're not interacting with those people.

Wearing the same mask for 8 hours, while talking, moving around, laughing, interacting, handing things to other people etc, is not only unlikely to prevent you from passing something on, there's a danger that it'll increase that chance of you passing something on, by concentrating infected spit in one spot on your face, which you then touch, move, brush against etc.

@Vinoonasunnyday

God with the volume of parents here do people genuinely not give a shit about their kids

Who would genuinely make their child wear a mask all day when they have no benefit to them and a single teacher hasn’t been proven to catch the virus anywhere worldwide

What kind of parent would do that genuinely I can’t understand it

This is not true. The most recently published PHE study ( still ongoing) has said they think there was student to staff transmission during June this year.

So what is your solution for schools then carbuncle? Because I am sure masks are better than hope and a wing and a prayer.

I am assuming children will be changing them if they have to wear them all day. DS will be taking a spare with him when he goes into school as will have to wear them on the bus, so will put a clean one on for the journey home.

A lot of the things you are talking about that usually happen in schools will be curtailed. Pupils will be working independently most of the time, not sharing equipment etc.

If you're wearing an ordinary cloth mask or a basic surgical mask, the outside of your mask will end up just as covered in whatever you're breathing out as the inside. Essentially the outside of a mask of an infected person is a petri dish of infection.

@ineedaholidaynow

I am assuming children will be changing them if they have to wear them all day. DS will be taking a spare with him when he goes into school as will have to wear them on the bus, so will put a clean one on for the journey home.

A lot of the things you are talking about that usually happen in schools will be curtailed. Pupils will be working independently most of the time, not sharing equipment etc.

If he changes his mask, will he carefully remove it without touching the outside, wash his hands and face with soap, then carefully dispose of the used mask? Or will he not bother to change it/just pull one mask off and put the other mask on/ball the mask up in his bag/pocket?

I'm trying not be snarky here but do you genuinely think teenagers won't hand things to each other at all during the day? Or get close to each other/brush off each other?

@Piggywaspushed

So what is your solution for schools then carbuncle? Because I am sure masks are better than hope and a wing and a prayer.

My solution for schools is to encourage good hygiene, especially thorough handwashing and make regular testing available to catch any outbreaks as early as possible. Beyond I think everyone will have to finally accept that there's a virus going around and that life has to continue at some point - constant focus and fear over one single risk isn't sensible or sustainable long term.

His school have stipulated that all children need to bring in a wipe clean sealable container/bag for all used reusable masks. There will be hand sanitiser and bins where they get off the bus. Lessons are to be provided for pupils who are not doing it right.

Staff and pupils are allowed to wear masks during the day if they want.