Would you be willing to be put under house arrest in order to save lives?

[Treesofwood]

Just that really. Would you be willing to go to prison to save lives? Would you be willing to give up your children's right to an education to save lives? This whole situation brings up many philosophical questions for me, and my theoretical response is not actually the sane as my response when faced with the reality.

@KingFredsTache

Getting the bloody country open will just make it worse. We'll be right back where we were, then what?

No we wouldn't necessarily. Getting the care homes sorted so that it can't spread through the most vulnerable people would make a huge difference. I think the figure is around a third of Covid deaths were of people in care homes, or in hospital but had been in a care home. Plus people generally being more aware with regards to masks, hand washing, social distancing etc. Plus while the figure of I think it's 6% of people having had it is way too low for herd immunity, obviously as more people are immune, the transmission will slow.

I'm not saying that we should open up necessarily by the way, or that we won't have any more problems, I am just saying that I think it would be unlikely that we would be in the March position again.

But care homes accounted for that proportion during lockdown.

How many people would get ill and need hospital care, how many would need ITU, how many would die, how many would suffer long term complications without lockdown? What do those figures look like?

You can't see these were the figures during lockdown and then assume that the same numbers will apply during a second wave without lockdown

Let's face it. You aren't not seeing friends or family to "keep infections down". Nobody is that altruistic. You are not seeing them incase they infect you! You arent avoiding pubs, restaurants, cafes etc because you are a good citizen. It is incase YOU get infected. The running theme with your posts @Hearhoovesthinkzebras is that all that matters is protecting you from covid! Screw everyone's jobs, mental health, children's education etc. I have two friends who were shielding. Both are back to work and out and about now with their kids. One runs a baby group which I now attend. Am I putting her life at risk by daring to enter a public space, or am I helping keep her small business afloat so she can feed her children?

and then went on to say my actions are only about protecting myself.

No, I didn't. I didn't use the word 'only'. You put that in there, to try to make a subtle, but significant, change to what I said.

As for suggesting that I'm not willing to do anything for the greater good? Where do you get that from? I complied with lockdown, I wear a mask, I've done everything asked of me. And it's apparently still not enough for you.

@Pertella

Ok, so explain then. Why does SD stop dentists from doing check ups? They are wearing full PPE, they do aerosolising treatment, routine check ups wearing full PPE isn't hazardous so where does SD come into it?

Its almost like SD isn't the only infection control measure.

You accused a pp of wanting to disregard infection control measures when they said businesses that couldn't maintain SD should be able to operate.

Are you now going to retract that statement as you are obviously fully aware that there are other measures besides SD that can control infection.

let people do what they want including discarding any infection control measures

This poster wants businesses to open without social distancing. - that's discarding infection control measures

Why should I retract anything?

My comment about businesses and infection control was about all businesses, as I said, nightclubs, restaurants, pubs, theatres.

You then said a consequence of removing SD would be dentists able to do routine check ups, yet you're still unable to explain this.

Now you're side stepping that by conflating two statements about different issues.

You're being completely disingenuous and are just trying to be goady.

Getting the bloody country open will just make it worse. We'll be right back where we were, then what? Hospitals overwhelmed but no second lockdown. What will happen then? Rationing - on the basis of what? Age? Disability? Everyone on here ok with that? No one over 60 giving hospital care? Anyone with a disability not treated, including children? All ok with that? Then what happens to those not able to get into.hospital? Just left to die at home? All ok with that?

I've already been waiting for the past 5 months. All my treatment aside from MH stopped. I should have had at least 3 minor surgeries by now, and either recovering or have a date for major surgery I need. Everyday that passes decreases my life expectancy because these aren't happening.
Because I am not getting treatment for other health issues, I have now got new health issues, and others have worsened quicker than they should have. Unless I'm treated soon I will become a massive financial burden on services that are massively underfunded and was on the verge of closure before Covid.

Second wave or not I am potentially fucked. There was a waiting list to begin with, never mind those who will be bumped up the list because whole departments still remain closed.

Without schools open children don't get an education.
Without companies opening people lose their jobs. This increases the taxes we pay thus less to spend elsewhere.
Without people spending their money there is less in the pot to fund those public service jobs.

During lockdown we have been spending online to places like Amazon. who pay little back to the country. Many online retailers are registered out of the UK. I don't know if they still do, but many supermarkets, hmv and more were registered off-shore for music and video games so they didn't have to pay as much back to the treasury.

A lot of people are on the brink of bankruptcy. Too many people and it's really not good for the country.

@isabellerossignol

and then went on to say my actions are only about protecting myself.

No, I didn't. I didn't use the word 'only'. You put that in there, to try to make a subtle, but significant, change to what I said.

As for suggesting that I'm not willing to do anything for the greater good? Where do you get that from? I complied with lockdown, I wear a mask, I've done everything asked of me. And it's apparently still not enough for you.

But that’s what she does @isabellerossignol. Small subtle twists to make everything seem all about her. And she lies about what people say.

It’s actually impossible to have a supportive thread for those of us who can’t wear masks and are worried about it because it just becomes the hooves show.

@Jrobhatch29

Let's face it. You aren't not seeing friends or family to "keep infections down". Nobody is that altruistic. You are not seeing them incase they infect you! You arent avoiding pubs, restaurants, cafes etc because you are a good citizen. It is incase YOU get infected. The running theme with your posts *@Hearhoovesthinkzebras* is that all that matters is protecting you from covid! Screw everyone's jobs, mental health, children's education etc. I have two friends who were shielding. Both are back to work and out and about now with their kids. One runs a baby group which I now attend. Am I putting her life at risk by daring to enter a public space, or am I helping keep her small business afloat so she can feed her children?

I'm back at work ffs!

I'm not seeing my parents - they're both shielding so pose no risk to me at all but I'm at work and my husband is at work in people's houses - I'm a risk to them so I'm staying away.

If I was doing everything to protect myself I wouldn't be back at work and my husband wouldn't be working in multiple customers houses risking his and my health to provide them with an essential service.

How are you attending a baby group? Are you in the UK? Six people are allowed to meet outdoors - how can a baby group meet up?

@canigooutyet

Getting the bloody country open will just make it worse. We'll be right back where we were, then what? Hospitals overwhelmed but no second lockdown. What will happen then? Rationing - on the basis of what? Age? Disability? Everyone on here ok with that? No one over 60 giving hospital care? Anyone with a disability not treated, including children? All ok with that? Then what happens to those not able to get into.hospital? Just left to die at home? All ok with that?

I've already been waiting for the past 5 months. All my treatment aside from MH stopped. I should have had at least 3 minor surgeries by now, and either recovering or have a date for major surgery I need. Everyday that passes decreases my life expectancy because these aren't happening.
Because I am not getting treatment for other health issues, I have now got new health issues, and others have worsened quicker than they should have. Unless I'm treated soon I will become a massive financial burden on services that are massively underfunded and was on the verge of closure before Covid.

Second wave or not I am potentially fucked. There was a waiting list to begin with, never mind those who will be bumped up the list because whole departments still remain closed.

Without schools open children don't get an education.
Without companies opening people lose their jobs. This increases the taxes we pay thus less to spend elsewhere.
Without people spending their money there is less in the pot to fund those public service jobs.

During lockdown we have been spending online to places like Amazon. who pay little back to the country. Many online retailers are registered out of the UK. I don't know if they still do, but many supermarkets, hmv and more were registered off-shore for music and video games so they didn't have to pay as much back to the treasury.

A lot of people are on the brink of bankruptcy. Too many people and it's really not good for the country.

And a second wave makes all of that better how?

3 babies and 3 parents. I'd call that a group of 6 wouldn't you?

It’s actually impossible to have a supportive thread for those of us who can’t wear masks and are worried about it because it just becomes the hooves show.

Then argue that on that thread rather than cherry pick and misquote on this thread and stop attacking me personally, misquoting me and then when I dare to respond to the multiple people goading and attacking me accuse me of making it all about me.

But care homes accounted for that proportion during lockdown.

How many people would get ill and need hospital care, how many would need ITU, how many would die, how many would suffer long term complications without lockdown? What do those figures look like?

You can't see these were the figures during lockdown and then assume that the same numbers will apply during a second wave without lockdown

True. But care homes were full of a good proportion of the most elderly and vulnerable in our society, the people most at risk. The government locked down the country at the same time that Covid was ripping through places holding lots of the very people we were supposed to be protecting!

And the fact is that the statistics show that for the vast majority of society, Covid is not a threat to life, we know that. In fact according to that Imperial Study, the largest asymptomatic group was the over 65s! And that makes it extra shit for the people who are vulnerable, but what do you do? A balance needs to be struck.

It is outdoors! But indoors from September. Because it is socially distanced on our own mats. We aren't just crawling allover each other
Not that I have to explain to you why her business is perfectly legal. As are the baby yoga, Sensory etc which have all been given the green light to open!

@canigooutyet

3 babies and 3 parents. I'd call that a group of 6 wouldn't you?

Maximum of two separate households isn't it?

Three mums is three households

Like I said, I'm not advocating to going back to how we were in February, but a 'second wave' is inevitable, especially over winter.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

It’s actually impossible to have a supportive thread for those of us who can’t wear masks and are worried about it because it just becomes the hooves show.

Then argue that on that thread rather than cherry pick and misquote on this thread and stop attacking me personally, misquoting me and then when I dare to respond to the multiple people goading and attacking me accuse me of making it all about me.

You are not the thread police.

To reply to the thread question:

Not if I was relying on other people to take risks that I wasn't prepared to take myself in order that I could live relatively unaffected. Ie with provision of water, food, household goods, power, sewage removal, rubbish collection, medical care if necessary, law and order, deliveries, internet etc etc.

You then said a consequence of removing SD would be dentists able to do routine check ups, yet you're still unable to explain this.

OK. I will use really simple words.

Social distancing requires you to maintain a set distance from other people.

If you didn't know, dentistry involves getting really really close to someone.

Therefore some businesses operate without SD and it doesn't mean they are disregarding infection control AS YOU SAID.

Now you're side stepping that by conflating two statements about different issues

You're being completely disingenuous and are just trying to be goady

DARVO

A business is different to a social gathering. My sons football team is back to training. That's more than 6. Is that illegal too @Hearhoovesthinkzebras or are they operating under the guidelines given?

Maximum of two separate households isn't it?

Three mums is three households

That’s for social gatherings in a private house hooves. Not businesses.

Otherwise how do you think cafes and restaurants are open?

@KingFredsTache

But care homes accounted for that proportion during lockdown.

How many people would get ill and need hospital care, how many would need ITU, how many would die, how many would suffer long term complications without lockdown? What do those figures look like?

You can't see these were the figures during lockdown and then assume that the same numbers will apply during a second wave without lockdown

True. But care homes were full of a good proportion of the most elderly and vulnerable in our society, the people most at risk. The government locked down the country at the same time that Covid was ripping through places holding lots of the very people we were supposed to be protecting!

And the fact is that the statistics show that for the vast majority of society, Covid is not a threat to life, we know that. In fact according to that Imperial Study, the largest asymptomatic group was the over 65s! And that makes it extra shit for the people who are vulnerable, but what do you do? A balance needs to be struck.

But death isn't the only bad outcome. Under 65s might not die but how many are left with serious complications? One study of people that had a "mild" illness showed a worrying percentage left with heart damage.

All of the data must be considered here, not just deaths, not just care home deaths, but serious complications and long term effects. Even if a tiny percentage of the population needs hospital treatment or suffers long term effects with the whole population vulnerable to catching it the sheer numbers involved will overwhelm the NHS.

That's the issue. 60 million people vulnerable to catching it at the same time will overwhelm the NHS and other services even if only 1% get seriously ill

I've stayed at home so that I didn't get ill and take hospital care away from someone else. I've complied with every single restrictikn and requirement placed on me

So what everyone else did, but without making the educational, financial, social, mental health consequences they did. Without suffering abuse.

Big whoop. Your own sacrifices have been minimal compared to what you’re expecting of others.

You are not the thread police.

Oh ok. I'll drag over the things you said to me then shall I? Take them out of context and re hash the argument here?

Shielding was never forced anyway. It was advisory.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/guidance-on-shielding-and-protecting-extremely-vulnerable-persons-from-covid-19/guidance-on-shielding-and-protecting-extremely-vulnerable-persons-from-covid-19

@Pertella

You then said a consequence of removing SD would be dentists able to do routine check ups, yet you're still unable to explain this.

OK. I will use really simple words.

Social distancing requires you to maintain a set distance from other people.

If you didn't know, dentistry involves getting really really close to someone.

Therefore some businesses operate without SD and it doesn't mean they are disregarding infection control AS YOU SAID.

Now you're side stepping that by conflating two statements about different issues

You're being completely disingenuous and are just trying to be goady

DARVO

But dentists have full PPE, of course they don't need to SD.

Beauticians are open, drs and hospitals are seeing patients and providing treatment whilst SD is in place. Of course SD has not applied to dentists seeing patients. The issue was providing PPE to protect during aerosolising procedures, not SD.

Cowering to a second wave destroys the economy. Without the money deaths will increase.
Cowering to wait for a vaccine destroys the economy and increase of death.

The chances of a vaccine aren't that great to be honest when you look at
Two other well known coronas

Common cold, first given a name back in the 60's. We life alongside it.
Flu been around for how long now? Iirc the vaccine was made back in the 1980's, and had to be boosted because it wasn't as effective. They are still working on this because flu has mutated since the vaccine was created. Yet even with a vaccine, how many die each year?

Deaths are a natural part of life. Through advances we can treat or make things comfortable for people. At the moment these people are being denied their basic right to medical treatment.

I'm at the point where I'm hoping it can be got a second time, at least it would land my arse in hospital and I would get the care I need. Fuck someone else might need the bed, I needed one months ago and still do. "Fixing" me means I can contribute to the economy instead of claiming benefits. It means if there is a second wave I am spending and earning.