US Doctor On Opening Schools

[mac12]

Dr James Hildreth, CEO of an American hospital and public health adviser to the mayor of Nashville, has a clear message about the opening of schools.

6 minute video well worth everyone's time.

A few days ago I listened to a great programe on radio 4. I can't remember what it was called. It was an analysis programme.

@steppemum
This one? (The Briefing Room)

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000ln07

I'd gladly keep my children at home as I am WFH but for the last 6 months they didn't hear a teacher's voice once. They had no teaching. It is a shame all schools didn't have the foresight to realise they needed to prove they could deliver online teaching last term so that they could campaign for it to be the default option over the autumn and winter.

I watched the video but it doesn't really say anything. The question is not if the virus exists in the air, it is whether there is enough to infect you and how likely are you to be infected depending on how far away you are.

In relation to schools, there is a balance of risks. The risks for not opening the schools are obvious and huge. There are risks also for opening schools and we need to manage those so the balance goes in the right direction.

You're stuck with central control in England, and I suspect a lot of suffering lies ahead.

well, considering that the UK is the size of one US state, then us being controlled centrally is hardly any different to state control is it?

And state control hasn't exactly served you well, with certain state governors allowing everyone back to work at the height of the crisis.

What is the problem? If teachers are worried about their own health they needn't as the evidence from schools around the world is that it's far more likely that adults give the children the virus than the other way around. If teachers are worried about giving children the virus they needn't worry as young children are less susceptible to catching the virus and when the do, have likely very mild to no symptoms. Although the virus is transmissible when someone is asymptomatic, viral load is far less. That is why in this disease (unlike most childhood infections) children are not major sources of contagion.

Essentially, as the evidence stands, schools are not sources of contagion. That is why they should fully reopen. Moderate proven-effective sanitation routines like hand washing should be part of the return of course.

Here is another expert FYI: www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000ln07

One very interesting piece of information was the comparison with schools in countries where they have re-opened, or never shut. The schools have NOT been sites of increased infection, or sites which have increased infection within the community. In other words. Kids didn't get sick. Staff didn't get sick, and families didn't get sick.
It is not 100% clear why not, but that is the empirical data so far.

Did the programme explore possible reasons:
Perhaps small class sizes?
Perhaps all children walk/bike to school or use private transport?
Mandatory nationwide mask wearing?
Relatively little foreign travel into those countries?
Strict quarantine measures?

[quote CoffeeandCroissant]A few days ago I listened to a great programe on radio 4. I can't remember what it was called. It was an analysis programme.

@steppemum
This one? (The Briefing Room)

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000ln07[/quote]
Yes!

well worth a listen

@Notfeelinggreattoday

Do scotland have to wear masks in schools , have they gone back as before or with many chamges can someone pleSe advise who is im scottish school system?

No, they don't have to wear masks. The primaries went back full-time, the secondaries did different things, ours went staggered entry and half-day but that's being increased.

@mathanxiety

One very interesting piece of information was the comparison with schools in countries where they have re-opened, or never shut. The schools have NOT been sites of increased infection, or sites which have increased infection within the community. In other words. Kids didn't get sick. Staff didn't get sick, and families didn't get sick. It is not 100% clear why not, but that is the empirical data so far.

Did the programme explore possible reasons:
Perhaps small class sizes?
Perhaps all children walk/bike to school or use private transport?
Mandatory nationwide mask wearing?
Relatively little foreign travel into those countries?
Strict quarantine measures?

no to all of your suggestions.

The point was that (as a PP has said) the evidence was that children did NOT pass the virus to the adults i the school. But rather any cases there were involved the adults passing the virus to the kids, who were then mildly effected.

Essentially, as the evidence stands, schools are not sources of contagion. That is why they should fully reopen.

^^ this

It is on the BBC programme, go and have a listen

Viral load is the same whether symptomatic or asymptomatic, @AllWashedOut.

www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/87926

"An important implication of our findings is there may be substantial underreporting of infected patients using the current symptom-based surveillance and screening," they wrote.

@mathanxiety

However, they added that detection of viral RNA does not equal detection of infectious virus, and larger epidemiological studies and experiments are needed to understand the link between viral shedding and transmissibility. They also noted they did not determine the role that viral molecular shedding played in transmission from asymptomatic patients

@steppemum
well, considering that the UK is the size of one US state, then us being controlled centrally is hardly any different to state control is it?

It's not a case of state control in the US.

It's county control and municipal control, down to the smallest incorporated municipality.

My municipality of 54,000 along with the neighbouring municipality of 11,000 form a combined high school 'district' which runs a high school where 3,800 students are currently enrolled. The District levies property taxes within the two municipalities, generating an income of just under $95 million annually, which is about 98% of the cost of running the District, including funding pensions. The Superintendent and the board call the shots.

My 'village' has a president who also calls the shots when it comes to ordering lockdowns, ordering mask wearing, closing premises that flout orders from village government. The 'village' funds its own health department, funds and runs its own police department, streets and san department, engineering department, forestry department, animal control department, motor vehicle registration and licensing department, parking and enforcement department, and much more. It contracts out garbage and recycling services.

The local big city schools superintendent and the mayor do likewise.

My municipality of 54,000 along with the neighbouring municipality of 11,000 form a combined high school 'district' which runs a high school where 3,800 students are currently enrolled.

many kids in UK travel to school.
My kids don't go to school in the district I live in.
I live in a large city, people come here to shop from lots of smaller towns and villages around.
many people where I live commute into London to work.

Your system works for you, please don't assume the same system would work for everyone. It may be excellent, but every country is different, we have massive overlaps between areas here, as we are so squashed together.

My family has had Covid. My daughter was the first infected so children must pass it to adults.

Are you all aware of how many countries have had schools open and teachers/children are not dropping dead? This hysteria is so bad for you all. I actually feel sad for you that you have been so taken in by it. I am sure I am going to get a load of abuse now but that's fine, I won't be back on this post.

Ps. I am a teacher. I have been working throughout with the children of doctors/nurses and everyone else.

You don't understand the term 'District' as applied to US public schools, @steppemum.

It's more than a catchment area. It's a taxing body that funds its own operations.

Population density here in my municipality is 11,000 per square mile. People commute into and out of it daily and travel to it for shopping.

The local 'village' government shut down a few days before the state ordered its lockdown, back in March. It made masks mandatory in the supermarkets (the only businesses that could remain open at that point) and kept them mandatory when reopening started very slowly.

This is what the local big city did too.

@LaurieMarlow

12 and 13 year olds (and let's be honest, many 14 and 15 year olds) are fine to be left alone for a few hours. But for 5 full days a week, left at home while parents work, and expect them to sensibly get up and settle down to work, and do all that is required, without being stupid, going out, meeting friends, downloading crap on the internet or just fighting with siblings, is a day dream.

Absolutely. What’s being discussed is nothing less than neglect, to be frank.

If we did end up with blended learning, it would make much more sense to have one group in 3 days one week, 2 days the next, rather than one whole week on, one whole week off.

@Moretolifethanthis2020 surely you have been working with very small numbers?

That’s what our school were going to do @Nellodee. But a lot of authorities could only provide 1 day a week under the 2m social distancing, even for senior high school pupils in exam years.

Copied from the HSE website:
“If your workers choose to wear face coverings you should support them. There are some circumstances when wearing a face covering is required as a precautionary measure.“
Staff working in schools should be able to wear masks, if they choose.

@Kitcat122
No, not at all. 15 in my 'bubble' (of mixed year groups) through the peak and then my whole class with the exception of 1 child back - I'm a year 1 teacher. Only a small class mind you - but still 22 children. All day every day.

If you have one set of evidence that says "We didn't find any cases of transmission in schools" and then another bunch which says "We DID find cases of transmission in schools" then surely the fact that some people DID find cases trumps the people who didn't?

Let's put it this way. You have a bag with a bunch of white counters, and a few black counters. You dig your hand in, and pull out a counter, and do this a few times. If all you pull out are white counters, then you might think there are no black counters in the bag. But if someone else does the same thing and they DO pull out black counters, it's madness to hold onto your position that the bag only contains white counters.

Ps. We are allowed to wear masks if we choose. I choose not to. The children I teach need to see my face and I want to see theirs. I am no more scared of this virus than any other virus we are exposed to constantly as teachers.

Genuinely people, please stop feeling hysterical. Once schools are back I think you'll feel better, just like lots of parents did when reception, year 1 and year 6 went back.

Thanks

@Nellodee
I'm sure it can transmit in schools but so can so many other viruses. Most cases are asymptomatic and death rates and hospital admissions are low. So I wonder why the hysteria is still going on.
Yes, the UK was criminal sending these poor people back into carehomes etc, but that's not the case now. Life has to go on. Why are we so terrified of a virus where about 80% of people are asymptomatic and the other 15% or more have it so mildly? I just don't understand it.