School re-opening under threat

[jomartin281271]

Headline in the London Evening Standard today that this new surge could threaten re-opening of schools. I'm not surprised. The government know that it's not safe to open schools under their current guidance. Cramming children, teachers and admin staff into those tiny spaces could cause a catastrophe. I feel sorry for teachers. Most of them are really committed to the job and their lives are being put at risk. Scary times.
www.standard.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-second-wave-schools-september-a4511516.html

Also there isn’t a lot of evidence in other countries where they have gone back to school (full attendance classroom school) of it causing anything other than a few localised spikes which as @Jrobhatch29 has said could happen in any area and is inevitable. Surely the risks of this must outweigh the benefit. An ‘outbreak’ of 2+ cases doesn’t mean certain death for every teacher. I think we all need some perspective.

@PineappleSquosh

Shit. That has really got to me. I’m not sure I can risk leaving my son orphaned for the sake of a job This is the crux of the matter. Ultimately teaching is just a job. You can get another job. Your son can’t get another mum. This is the exact reason that I’ve quit teaching. I wonder how many others will quit when the enormity of the risk they’re being asked to take actually hits home.

Yeah for some reason the dfe having guidance for when one of us dies and realising they’d likely say we could have caught it anywhere and in my case try to wriggle out of even coughing up my pension for my son really made it hit home.

And to have that feeling in your gut and fear for your child in the midst of a conversation like this with people who would rather we died than afford us any protection and who have zero empathy because all they care about is full time childcare for their kids is...

Hmm. I really feel different.

Napqueen,

Could you tell me which countries have returned to full attendance classroom school?

Israel is the only country I can think of where children have gone back as is planned for Engalnd - full, crowded classrooms of over 30, with no masks and no social distancing .... and these very classrooms have been blamed for the rapidly rising number of infections there...

Is there another country that you were thinking of?

I've seen lots of parents of small children out enjoying themselves in coffee shops, restaurants, getting together at each other's houses for parties, shopping trips together, driving off to France for holidays and jetting off on holidays to various destinations in Europe, especially Spain

Interesting, I've seen none of those things except a couple of people going on holiday (which is allowed - the parties you mention are not). However, I agree, this is all in our own hands. Follow the rules and we won't have a second spike. Decide it's over and we're "entitled" to fun and who knows what will happen.

Yeah for some reason the dfe having guidance for when one of us dies and realising they’d likely say we could have caught it anywhere and in my case try to wriggle out of even coughing up my pension for my son really made it hit home

Why would they try to wiggle out of paying a pension? The pension/death in service benefit applies however someone dies. "Death in service" doesn't mean dying as a result of work, it just means dying while you are in that employment. If I walked out in front of the proverbial bus tomorrow my husband would get my pensions. I wouldn't eg have to fall down the stairs at work.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/schools-reopening-coronavirus/2020/07/10/865fb3e6-c122-11ea-8908-68a2b9eae9e0_story.html%3foutputType=amp

Not the best source at 2 minutes notice but evidence it’s not necessarily the catastrophe that everyone’s expecting.

Im not a dick I’m hugely appreciative of teachers and do understand their risks.
But everyone else has had to go back to work, I worked in a high risk covid area throughout lockdown with no experience there and limited PPE initially. It was scary but we didn’t have the option not to.

Yes, limited PPE. Teachers are getting NONE.

I’d take limited over none!

Yes but they’re not working face to face with known covid +ve highly ill patients too. It’s with children and young people who at the slightest hint of a symptom will be sent away until tested and negative (quite reasonably) .

@Napqueen1234

Also there isn’t a lot of evidence in other countries where they have gone back to school (full attendance classroom school) of it causing anything other than a few localised spikes which as *@Jrobhatch29* has said could happen in any area and is inevitable. Surely the risks of this must outweigh the benefit. An ‘outbreak’ of 2+ cases doesn’t mean certain death for every teacher. I think we all need some perspective.

Please link to a reliably sourced article showing a single country that has gone back to school with normal class sizes and without masks.

The closest was Israel, which went back with normal class sizes but even they insisted children wore masks. When the masks came off at one school it led to a mass outbreak.

Instead of vague statements, how about posting at least a shred of evidence that schools have opened anywhere without for more stringent precautions than those proposed in the UK?

What are the actual chances of your son being orphaned? Like 1 in how many thousand or million? Please tell me.

@TrustTheGeneGenie Sadly somewhat higher than the actual chances of you being slapped in the face with a three day old fish.

TheHoneyBadger So true, they will use it as defence to get out of a payout. It is disgusting.

I also agree, what has happened to humanity and compassion for other ppl? Surely protection should be afforded to all staff regardless of their job role and when ppl are fighting for it and are shot down it does make you feel disgusted in society that they couldn't care less about ensuring the basics.

More of an issue is that people are happy for their children to experience grief when their teacher dies. They seem oblivious to the fact that their children will be devastated if their teacher dies.

Napqueen,

Before comparing any school opening data with what is proposed for England, you HAVE to consider:

• Age of children (even the article you have linked to admits that for children older than primary age the risks are much higher)
• Class numbers (much lower generally in Europe)
• Whether the classes were subdivided (almost all the school systems that have re-opened so far have done so in classes with smaller groups)
• Whether social distancing has been practised (none of this in England's plans)
• Whether additional changes have been made (e.g. outdoor sinks, additional space, classes held outdoors - none of these are planned for England's September return)
• Additional cleaning schedules (ditto - none expected in September, because there is no extra money allowed)

Yes but they’re not working face to face with known covid +ve highly ill patients too.

So no other NHS staff member is wearing PPE? It's just those working face to face with Covid positive patients?

The article linked also states ''And, especially in communities where the virus is still circulating widely, elaborate and expensive measures may be necessary to avoid shutting down entire schools each time a student tests positive.'' No elaborate or expensive measures being put forward for England at least, well... no measures at all apart from 'bubbles', that word is used to make it seem like it's something it really is not.

I totally agree with PP who said we need to differentiate between primary and secondary (and areas where it is three tier).

Secondary includes adults - some of the Y13s I teach are 18. We definitely could have worked a plan for blended learning at secondary. Either week in, week off or two days in two off etc... something whereby less teaching time but in smaller groups with work set in between these sessions. We could have had plenty of time to plan for this and the government have been a complete shambles at managing or thinking about it. We could have worked to mitigate or support those without the tech. Secondary schools being part time shouldn’t affect working parents.

As it stands I have no idea what I am going back to. I know year groups are bubbles but there is no point as all our students come on public transport at the same time, multiple siblings etc... the word bubble seems to be designed to make those outside secondaries time believe it is safe.

I want nothing more than to be back with my students in the classroom. Teaching them. But I also want this to be safe for all involved. Not just for me and my family but also for my students and their families, many of whom live in fairly crowded multigenerational homes.

Teachers up and down the country are full of ideas and ways to try and do this safely but we’re not being allowed to have this conversation and instead many of us are in limbo waiting for more guidance to come out mid-August.

I have to say I am heartened to hear so many parents on this thread with sensible views/opinions. It has been miserable being a teacher on MN recently.

Sorry, should have included:

• Whether masks / visors / shields / screens have been used or erected. No masks or visors to be used in England (although some schools have seen the light on this one and are defying guidance by providing visors and allowing masks)

I'm a TA, I have been working in school the whole time, firstly in a keyworkers class, then with my own bubble once some year groups returned, no PPE and as it was a reception class no social distancing. I have no problem going back in September. I will be in a bubble consisting of 60 children and 8 staff and whilst I realise there is a definite risk involved, I personally feel getting children back to some sort of normality is more important.

@Ickabog they are now but as you saw on the news there were huge shortages at the start even in the high risk areas.

I can’t find it the actual research articles so quickly and the links I have are just newspaper articles so will just get shot down for poor credibility.

BUT this study does show that going back could be mitigated and made safer by an effective track and trace system which from what I gather the government is hoping to get into place ready for September. Perhaps that’s where the priority should be.

www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.01.20100461v1.full.pdf

Also there isn’t a lot of evidence in other countries where they have gone back to school (full attendance classroom school) of it causing anything other than a few localised spikes which as @Jrobhatch29 has said could happen in any area and is inevitable. Surely the risks of this must outweigh the benefit. An ‘outbreak’ of 2+ cases doesn’t mean certain death for every teacher. I think we all need some perspective

In Victoria, where only 11s and 12s are taught in school, more than 80 schools are closed. One school has 7 teachers testing positive for COVID-19.

WhattheFeck,

Of course, all of us will be there in September with our game faces on, doing our job, teaching the children, because we all believe that is important.

Should we be being asked to, though? Is it reasonable for the Government and parents, without anyone ever explicitly saying it is risky at all, to expect us to take that risk?

Let them who can have their children at home stay at home. Please no, we’ve had months of Key worker children and certain year groups getting a better quality of education than other children. ALL children have an equal right to education and they’ve not had it over the last few months. Whatever happens next, it needs to be equal ops for all. If that’s part time for all then so be it but not some in some out based on their parents job etc.

Here’s a pre print (not peer reviewed so can’t go in the scary science thread) on the role of schools in amplifying transmission. It’s by Public Health England, and three top tier universities, so I trust the analysis.

It says, “School reopening can contribute to significant increases in the growth rate in countries like Germany, where community transmission is relatively high. Our findings underscore the need for a cautious evaluation of reopening strategies that ensure low classroom occupancy and a solid infrastructure to quickly identify and isolate new infections.”

Low classroom occupancy.... don’t see that anywhere in the government’s plans, but that is what the scientists unequivocally advise.

www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.24.20139634v1

Please no, we’ve had months of Key worker children and certain year groups getting a better quality of education than other children. ALL children have an equal right to education and they’ve not had it over the last few months. Whatever happens next, it needs to be equal ops for all. If that’s part time for all then so be it but not some in some out based on their parents job etc.

I agree that the last term has impacted some children far more than others already.

Next term whatever is implemented needs to be equal for all.

But if people want to voluntarily homeschool then of course they can, plus there is online resources atm.