Disability and the covid response - it feels unfair...

[OpheliasCrayon]

I maybe come across as fairly crappy on other posts because I'm not bothered by Corona and carry on with life as normal as much as is possible without risking others.

I'm just wondering if there's any disabled people out there who feel the same as me, or if anyone who isn't disabled has considered this?

The covid response has pissed me off. Not because I don't want to keep people safe, of course I do. I don't want people gravely ill or dying if they don't have to be!!!

But there have been people at risk of illnesses and unable to work since the start of time, but we have been largely ignored and any accomodations we want , need and are entitled to are a fight.

There are many illnesses which would put me at risk, but I go to work and always have done with no PPE and no allowances are made or provisions put in place to stop me getting ill. It's just tough luck if I do , but the results of some illnesses would be much more devastating to me than covid.

I've been too unwell to go into work more times than I could possibly count, but I've been able to work from home. But this has been a gigantic fight and battle, where I've had my pay taken off me unfairly, I've had to fight to be allowed to so things, to have accommodations made, and have had to get the unions involved because employers have refused to give me what I'm entitled to.

People suddenly think it's a good idea to wash their hands, take precautions to not make other people unwell, are allowed to work at home and are provided with means to do so etc etc the list goes on.

Suddenly when something affects EVEYONE potentially, the world goes into meltdown and allowances are made for everyone. But what about us? Who are always at risk? Who always struggle to go into work physically? Where has the help been before now?

I don't think the covid response shouldn't happen , but I do feel even more aggrieved that until now, my needs and the needs of countless other disabled people I know, have been pushed aside.

@lljkk

I still can't understand since you can't be specific. Seems like others believe they understand so you'll probably get discussion you wanted.

It isn't something specific!!

I don't know how else to make my point. Other people have put it in other words which seem to echo what I mean.

It's not specific changes.

It's just that whereas before it was individual disabled people trying to get whatever changes they needed, or just some simple understanding of limitations etc...now there's something that affects EVERYONE potentially, huge changes can be made across the board within days / hour!

It's galling to see that, when I've had to fight for my pay for months on end, or as others have Said they need to take months and months to get the right keyboard / computer set up.

Everything seems somewhat simple now to change the fundamental set up of our society within the blink of an eye (I'm not saying it shouldn't be changed )....but when it's for the individual, it's a fight.

Or goodness me let's not even talk about disability here.

I've just had a job interview over zoom. It was at a time that I just wouldn't have been able to attend in person due to childcare commitments but, because it was over zoom and I didn't need to leave the house, my husband and I could have made it work.

That wouldn't have been possible before, so perhaps I wouldn't have been able to attend an interview if I had no childcare, so would have lost out on work

But because everyone has childcare issues currently, and everyone is having to change the way they work, things can suddenly be worked around.

So this applies not just to disability, perhaps single parents who haven't been able to arrange childcare, or families with no local relatives etc..

Suddenly because the individual struggle applies to everyone, there is flexibility and problems can be worked around...but before it wasn't so easy

@NotShiny there's no point discussing it anymore, the window example, for example, you're saying that it isn't reasonable, but to that person it could be the difference to being able to work or being condemned to a life sat at home; therefore it's a small price. Fans are commonly used in the offices I've worked in during the summer, when it's really hot a window open actually lets heat in unless it's cooler outside than it is inside. It's looking for excuses that don't really exist. The crux for me is that many workplaces make excuse after excuse, or don't even progress candidates beyond interview stage because they assume what it will be like, or don't want to make some effort into making it possible.

I still can't understand since you can't be specific. Seems like others believe they understand so you'll probably get discussion you wanted.

I am guessing that after many years of being told by employers that they cannot make simple adjustments, it's a bit galling that actually they can quite happily make adjustments when they need to. It's kind of basically saying we could have before adjusted the workplace slightly for you, but we would rather just an able bodied person so we don't have to bother. It's like if you were trying to do something and kept getting told it wasn't possible, and then someone else asks and actually it is possible, they just didn't want to do it for you.

"Today 11:52PerkingFaintly

"One disabled person wanted a window to be closed and another didnt. It therefore wasn't a reasonable request."

"So now it's a "want", not a need? For both parties? Like ordinary people squabbling over windows?"

Paerking, it was both. Person A wanted it shut because it affected his disability. Another wanted it open because it affected his. Both felt it was a need. The rest of the office with no disabilities wanted it open because it was the middle of a heatwave. Other options had already been done, like moving people around, changing working hours etc. Employer was very reasonable and doing their best to accommodate all.

"You know what, sometimes there are actual needs that do conflict. I've known it happen where someone with severe dog-triggered asthma was working for the same company as someone who had a guide dog."

Yes, that's a very similar situation.

"They did have to discuss honestly and come up with creative ways of working round each other. They didn't have to lose their jobs over it. But everyone has to be willing to look for solutions, not just say, "This is how we do it, fit in or fuck off.""

Yes I agree, everybody does look for solutions more often than not. In my example, nobody said fuck off. But sometimes, as the op has admitted, employers just cant make the adjustments.

[quote Staplemaple]@NotShiny there's no point discussing it anymore, the window example, for example, you're saying that it isn't reasonable, but to that person it could be the difference to being able to work or being condemned to a life sat at home; therefore it's a small price. Fans are commonly used in the offices I've worked in during the summer, when it's really hot a window open actually lets heat in unless it's cooler outside than it is inside. It's looking for excuses that don't really exist. The crux for me is that many workplaces make excuse after excuse, or don't even progress candidates beyond interview stage because they assume what it will be like, or don't want to make some effort into making it possible.

I still can't understand since you can't be specific. Seems like others believe they understand so you'll probably get discussion you wanted.

I am guessing that after many years of being told by employers that they cannot make simple adjustments, it's a bit galling that actually they can quite happily make adjustments when they need to. It's kind of basically saying we could have before adjusted the workplace slightly for you, but we would rather just an able bodied person so we don't have to bother. It's like if you were trying to do something and kept getting told it wasn't possible, and then someone else asks and actually it is possible, they just didn't want to do it for you.[/quote]
You seem to be explaining this much more eloquently than I am managing.

Thank you

Those massive changes HAVE adversely effected most businesses and organisations though. That's the point you're missing.

Many businesses have gone under, many people have lost employment. Businesses losing money every day even if they've been able to reopen.

Even non-businesses. NHS for example; losing money every day due to CV response and every single area suffering with increased waiting lists etc because of new measures.

You seem to think all these adjustments have been made and proven it's easy to do and doesn't have any adverse effect. It does. Hugely.

@EricLove123

Those massive changes HAVE adversely effected most businesses and organisations though. That's the point you're missing.

Many businesses have gone under, many people have lost employment. Businesses losing money every day even if they've been able to reopen.

Even non-businesses. NHS for example; losing money every day due to CV response and every single area suffering with increased waiting lists etc because of new measures.

You seem to think all these adjustments have been made and proven it's easy to do and doesn't have any adverse effect. It does. Hugely.

Yes, I do accept that. It's horrible to see how many businesses have had to close. I have friends worried for their jobs, some who are wondering whether their businesses will carry on. My daughter's swim school has had to shut as they are no longer able to operate. I absolutely accept that the collateral damage has been immense. And that is absolutely terrible.

The point I was making, to be honest, was more one of understanding than actual phsyical change

"12:14Staplemaple

@NotShinythere's no point discussing it anymore, the window example, for example, you're saying that it isn't reasonable, but to that person it could be the difference to being able to work or being condemned to a life sat at home; therefore it's a small price."

So the person with a disability that needed the window open has to go home instead? You just dont get it. I'm simply demonstrating that sometimes one disabled persons wants or needs arent possible due to another disabled persons wants or needs, or even due to other peoples needs. You cant have a whole office feeling sick or passing out and not able to work. You need to let it go. Surely you must understand that sometimes adjustments are just not possible.

@EricLove123 they do on the scale they have been carried out, ie closing entire industries, repurposing a lot of hospital wards; but this would not be the case for individuals having adjustments made, but shows they are capable. Obviously if a company happened to employ 100 people who needed adjustments then that would have a big affect, but it's somewhat unlikely just because of the % of the population who require them. Again, excuses as to why to justify excluding people isn't really useful.

@NotShiny you are right they aren't always possible, but unless the office is just one room (fairly unlikely) then there is a high chance adjustments can be made in that instance. Of course there are circumstances where it's not possible, but there are plenty where it is with a bit of flexibility, imagination, and willing- which seems to be in short supply, as it's easier not to bother.

I've never made excuses for excluding people. Ever.

I just don't agree with the OPs point which is that she feels quite rightly that she's been unjustly treated and that now every workplace has had to make adjustments for CV it proves it was easy to do and hasn't caused problems.

Which it has. Massively and we haven't even seen the tip of the iceberg of the effect on the economy including the NHS.

I also don't agree that it's increased awareness of disability discrimination or understanding of individuals with disabilities or specific vulnerabilities. If anything, I think it's sadly likely to have increased the view that employing people with certain disabilities or vulnerabilities is a risk to a business or organisation. I don't think that's right and it's illegal but I can see it coming.

"Also, the wider picture ? So someone is a tad inconvenienced by a raised desk or an open window or whatever small issues seem to be brought up here, goodness knows....so ... That small inconvenience might be something than enables the disabled person to work. Would that be so bad????"

Well it might be if it affects another disabled person. What might be a small inconvenience to you, might be a big problem to someone else. All I was trying to explain is that what might seem a reasonable request to one person, might not actually be reasonable. The majority of cases I'm aware of are absolutely reasonable and have been possible but sometimes its not, for the examples I've given.

"2:31Staplemaple

@NotShinyyou are right they aren't always possible, but unless the office is just one room (fairly unlikely) then there is a high chance adjustments can be made in that instance. Of course there are circumstances where it's not possible, but there are plenty where it is with a bit of flexibility, imagination, and willing- which seems to be in short supply, as it's easier not to bother."

Staple I'm sorry but I feel you need to let it go. I'm not going any further into detail as this is outing. I know the details, you dont, and it's very easy to say "but they could have done this or that". Why are you thinking everything wasnt considered or tried? Of course it was. My general point is that adjustments arent always reasonable or possible and in this case, the request was deemed not reasonable because of other people and other disabilities. I'm afraid I'm not going to say anything more on it. Surely you must see that sometimes things just arent reasonable? Even the op has now said the has a condition that employers cant make adjustments for. I'm trying to find a role for someone who would need massive adjustments making and I know I cant expect these adjustments.

I get it.

Person with a disability needs to work from home. Can’t be done, confidentiality, expense of providing laptop, video conferencing not secure, need to be present.

Covid comes.

Entire office suddenly able to work from home.

Disabled person needs to work slightly different hours to accommodate complex necessary morning routine. Can’t be done.

Covid comes.

Entire office now able to work around childcare related tasks.

Not work related - all the threads about closed loos and lack of access to toilets. Any disabled person needing a hoist has been living like this for years.

I've said several times some things aren't reasonable, yes.

There has been a big outcry about children being out of school since March. Thousands of parents of disabled children could say welcome to our world.

"Disabled people are exempt from mask wearing but that does put other people at risk unfortunately."

Many people who cannot wear a mask because of things such as autism are not the ones ignoring social distancing, having loads of people around their house and choosing to engage in other behaviours which cause most of the spread. I wish those commenting on risk would concentrate more on these people instead.

@Staplemaple Now, with CV it's entirely possible 100 people could need an adjustment. And this may not be feasible.

My NHS trust has just around 200 employees who've been shielding. That is around 200 people who would otherwise have been in work who have (quite rightly) been paid to not be at work for almost 5 mths by the time August 1st comes around. And others have had to take their place and also be paid.

But even when 1st August comes around and they can 'officially' deshield and potentially return to work, that'll be a lot of people who will likely have to be found another workplace or role. The same for teachers, Police, prison officers, shop workers for e.g who usually have a public facing role. Plus loads of businesses and smaller employers.

And then what if they're instructed to shield again?

We won't know the true impact of the CV response for a year or two but it'll be huge and I very much fear it'll only increase discrimination whether conscious or not because the effects are huge.

@EricLove123 yes but thats not the same as an individual who often won't even proceed past the interview stage because employers are wary. This is an unprecedented situation, and once covid is 'over' these people will be able to go on and work as before. For others this isn't the case. The OP was trying to point out merely that after hearing for years that certain things aren't possible for an individual, when they absolutely are, it's unfair and this situation merely highlights that. Once covid is over it would be unusual to have numbers in the hundreds who require adjustments.

@Staplemaple

Exactly, this is an unprecented situation which is why I disagreed with OPs point that suddenly asjustments were made for everyone and it's all been hunky dory which proves employers were just being difficult in the past. I 100% agree some have been but what's happening now isn't proving her point IMO. Because for most businesses and organisations, the forced changes have had a massive negative impact and it's not been easy.

I hope you're right when you don't think what's happened under CV is going to influence employers in the future.

Personally I think it will make employers much more 'wary' of employing someone with specific vulnerabilities.

I also think it may lead to a change in disability discrimination legislation but I hope not.

I think the majority of disabled people were treated badly by the Covid response. Unless you were in the shielded group you weren't able to get priority for Shopping slots, most likely unable to stand in long queues to get in supermarkets, get prescriptions etc, plus medical appointments or treatments were cancelled or suspended. This government has a very convenient memory, to get disability benefits you have to jump through so many hoops, proving that you can't walk, go out, do your own shopping etc, but come the Covid crisis, that didn't matter, we were expected to be able to get to the shops, queue for hours, carry our shopping, do everything we may have fought for years to prove we couldn't do.

Well yes, people respond more to things that directly affect them and theirs. We all do this, I'm sure you do too OP.

@NotShiny

"Also, the wider picture ? So someone is a tad inconvenienced by a raised desk or an open window or whatever small issues seem to be brought up here, goodness knows....so ... That small inconvenience might be something than enables the disabled person to work. Would that be so bad????"

Well it might be if it affects another disabled person. What might be a small inconvenience to you, might be a big problem to someone else. All I was trying to explain is that what might seem a reasonable request to one person, might not actually be reasonable. The majority of cases I'm aware of are absolutely reasonable and have been possible but sometimes its not, for the examples I've given.

You're massively picking holes in a really specific situation. I honestly don't accept your argument as a valid point. Yeah sure if there are two disabled people and their needs are different then yes there may be issues but come on, that's not the most usual situation - I feel your just using it to pick holes in the situation as a whole

@SilenceOfThePrams

I get it.

Person with a disability needs to work from home. Can’t be done, confidentiality, expense of providing laptop, video conferencing not secure, need to be present.

Covid comes.

Entire office suddenly able to work from home.

Disabled person needs to work slightly different hours to accommodate complex necessary morning routine. Can’t be done.

Covid comes.

Entire office now able to work around childcare related tasks.

Not work related - all the threads about closed loos and lack of access to toilets. Any disabled person needing a hoist has been living like this for years.

Exactly!!

People obviously Are getting my point, as this is exactly what I mean

@Staplemaple

I've said several times some things aren't reasonable, yes.

Precisely this. It's galling to be told the things we have fought for just weren't at all possible, right up until the ableds needed it and then suddenly it could be done. Like working remotely.

And the idea that companies are happy to make adjustments and that disabled workers are protected by law is laughable, based on my experiences. The laws exist, but it's almost impossible to enforce them.

Disabled people are treated as second class citizens in this country, having to go through the horrific assessment process when applying for benefits, having to answer questions on personal & distressing matters, the mental distress of actually going through it. Employers will do anything they can get away with not by employing or making special arrangements for a disabled person. Disabled children are not given the best support in schools, parents have to fight for every bit of support they need, EHCP's are almost impossible to get, parents have to go through tribunals that cost thousands to get their child the specialist school place they need.