Disability and the covid response - it feels unfair...

[OpheliasCrayon]

I maybe come across as fairly crappy on other posts because I'm not bothered by Corona and carry on with life as normal as much as is possible without risking others.

I'm just wondering if there's any disabled people out there who feel the same as me, or if anyone who isn't disabled has considered this?

The covid response has pissed me off. Not because I don't want to keep people safe, of course I do. I don't want people gravely ill or dying if they don't have to be!!!

But there have been people at risk of illnesses and unable to work since the start of time, but we have been largely ignored and any accomodations we want , need and are entitled to are a fight.

There are many illnesses which would put me at risk, but I go to work and always have done with no PPE and no allowances are made or provisions put in place to stop me getting ill. It's just tough luck if I do , but the results of some illnesses would be much more devastating to me than covid.

I've been too unwell to go into work more times than I could possibly count, but I've been able to work from home. But this has been a gigantic fight and battle, where I've had my pay taken off me unfairly, I've had to fight to be allowed to so things, to have accommodations made, and have had to get the unions involved because employers have refused to give me what I'm entitled to.

People suddenly think it's a good idea to wash their hands, take precautions to not make other people unwell, are allowed to work at home and are provided with means to do so etc etc the list goes on.

Suddenly when something affects EVEYONE potentially, the world goes into meltdown and allowances are made for everyone. But what about us? Who are always at risk? Who always struggle to go into work physically? Where has the help been before now?

I don't think the covid response shouldn't happen , but I do feel even more aggrieved that until now, my needs and the needs of countless other disabled people I know, have been pushed aside.

@NotShiny isn't wrong that some people make requests for UNreasonable adjustments but that's a very, very few people. The problem being that as with most things, people remember the bad experience/piss taker they encountered and then feel defensive, anxious or internally roll their eyes when reasonable adjustments are mentioned. Which is shit and shouldn't happen and becomes unconscious discrimination.

I dont disagree in the basic principal that employers now have to look at making things covid safe for employees and are therefore making adjustments that they wouldnt have before.. however, in terms of shops for example, having a one way system and screens up and social distancing..I suspect if pre covid, an employee was susceptible to infection and asked for those adjustments, the employer could quite reasonably, say no. Because it would affect their business etc.

@NotShiny I did read them, but the window one for a start isnt exclusive to those with disabilities. There are always people complaining about windows being open or shut, and no one has autonomy over them anyway, I would happily sit with a window closed if it meant someone being able to access the workplace. I have to sit with it closed most of the time anyway as John declares he doesnt like them open. When we had a BSL interpreter for someone joining the team, this was funded mainly by an intuitive similar to this updated one, same for equipment:

www.gov.uk/government/publications/access-to-work-guide-for-employers/access-to-work-factsheet-for-employers

There are some instances where adjustments just aren't reasonable, but lets be honest, most employers just can't be arsed with the hassle, or they assume what it will be like and don't want to give someone an equal chance; and that's a disgrace. The adjusting the whole shop isn't proportionate, but the perspex screens which don't cost much on one of the tills could have been done before if someone was immunocompromised. I agree in part that there are limitations for everyone and people should be aware, for example if someone cannot drive it would be unreasonable to apply for a job as a lorry driver if it doesn't include training. But there are so many times where people are just not considered, or deemed too much effort.

"NotShinyI did read them, but the window one for a start isnt exclusive to those with disabilities. There are always people complaining about windows being open or shut, and no one has autonomy over them anyway, I would happily sit with a window closed if it meant someone being able to access the workplace."

You might not happily sit hot all day if you too have a disability that is affected by heat though. Or if it makes you feel incredibly sick. There are very few people who would be able to due that due to their disabilities. Just an example of where an employer may not be able to make that adjustment. Disability doesnt always trump all. It cant.

NotShiny, the OP isn't claiming that every imaginable thing disabled thing might ask for can reasonably be accommodated.

And you have completely shot yourself in the foot by using "wanting a window closed" as an example of not a reasonable adjustment.

You even phrase it as the disabled person's "need" vs "affects" other people, which really shows up the discrepancy in how you prioritise people.

"When we had a BSL interpreter for someone joining the team, this was funded mainly by an intuitive similar to this updated one, same for equipment:"

Yes and that's great, but access to work wont always pay all costs and there still might be some cost to the business.

As Staplemaple points out, even without an actual need, people have preferences over windows which they then squabble over.

"11:36PerkingFaintly

NotShiny, the OP isn't claiming that every imaginable thing disabled thing might ask for can reasonably be accommodated."

Unfortunately she did. She even said she doesnt know anyone who has ever asked anything that is unreasonable. I quite rightly pointed out that is unfortunately not always the case.

"And you have completely shot yourself in the foot by using "wanting a window closed" as an example of not a reasonable adjustment."
How so? I know this to be a true example. One disabled person wanted a window to be closed and another didnt. It therefore wasnt a reasonable request.

"You even phrase it as the disabled person's "need" vs "affects" other people, which really shows up the discrepancy in how you prioritise people."
Not at all. Again you are presuming I'm not disabled myself?

It's the attitude that, if a disabled person needs it then it's a problem and hassle, whereas if a non-disabled person just wants it then that's normal daily life.

I feel like I've fallen through a time-warp into the 1920s, and an employer is explaining that I can't have a job because they only have men's toilets and fitting women's toilets will be a problem.

you are presuming I'm not disabled myself?

Nope. Not presuming anything and frankly don't care either way. I'm seeing the way you talk about people in the workplace.

But the person who was hot could have a fan which costs around a tenner. I know what you're saying that some things are unreasonable, but others are not yet are made out to be a huge deal. I think that is what OP was getting at, is that people who have disabilities are often not given opportunities because businesses are adamant that they couldn't possibly do x, y or z, but in this instance funnily enough they have made many adjustments.

@NotShiny

"NotShinyI did read them, but the window one for a start isnt exclusive to those with disabilities. There are always people complaining about windows being open or shut, and no one has autonomy over them anyway, I would happily sit with a window closed if it meant someone being able to access the workplace."

You might not happily sit hot all day if you too have a disability that is affected by heat though. Or if it makes you feel incredibly sick. There are very few people who would be able to due that due to their disabilities. Just an example of where an employer may not be able to make that adjustment. Disability doesnt always trump all. It cant.

Disability doesn't trump all. I never said it did

Covid seems to be trumping all at the moment however, which was rather my point.

@Staplemaple

But the person who was hot could have a fan which costs around a tenner. I know what you're saying that some things are unreasonable, but others are not yet are made out to be a huge deal. I think that is what OP was getting at, is that people who have disabilities are often not given opportunities because businesses are adamant that they couldn't possibly do x, y or z, but in this instance funnily enough they have made many adjustments.

Yes, thank you, that is indeed exactly my point.

I think the fact that you feel someone should not be in the workforce because of opening or closing a window (which again, no one has control over anyway) demonstrates the point about most not making even reasonable adjustments nicely.

OP: can you explain what support you didn't have before that has appeared since February due to covid control measures? I'm not following very well.

38PerkingFaintly

"AsStaplemaplepoints out, even without an actualneed, people havepreferencesover windows which they then squabble over."
Yes of course they do. There are lots of examples whereby requests can be deemed not reasonable, that was just an example. The majority of requests I think are easy and can be honoured. I just think we need to be reasonable in our requests when making them.

One disabled person wanted a window to be closed and another didnt. It therefore wasn't a reasonable request.

So now it's a "want", not a need? For both parties? Like ordinary people squabbling over windows?

You know what, sometimes there are actual needs that do conflict. I've known it happen where someone with severe dog-triggered asthma was working for the same company as someone who had a guide dog.

They did have to discuss honestly and come up with creative ways of working round each other. They didn't have to lose their jobs over it. But everyone has to be willing to look for solutions, not just say, "This is how we do it, fit in or fuck off."

@NotShiny

"11:36PerkingFaintly

NotShiny, the OP isn't claiming that every imaginable thing disabled thing might ask for can reasonably be accommodated."

Unfortunately she did. She even said she doesnt know anyone who has ever asked anything that is unreasonable. I quite rightly pointed out that is unfortunately not always the case.

"And you have completely shot yourself in the foot by using "wanting a window closed" as an example of not a reasonable adjustment."
How so? I know this to be a true example. One disabled person wanted a window to be closed and another didnt. It therefore wasnt a reasonable request.

"You even phrase it as the disabled person's "need" vs "affects" other people, which really shows up the discrepancy in how you prioritise people."
Not at all. Again you are presuming I'm not disabled myself?

No, I don't know any disabled people who have asked for something that wasn't reasonable. Owing to the fact that on the whole , a disabled person wanting to go to work and needing some adjustments in order to do so, isn't unreasonable

How terribly inconvenient that someone may need a window open. Gosh. I would be up in arms over that

Yes it feels like a constant uphill battle as a disabled person to stay in work. But if you don't you're subject to prejudice and abuse for being a "scrounger".

Even cheap shit like I need a larger monitor is a battle. Getting an ergonomic chair, mouse and keyboard took years. This isn't a tiny company but preferred suppliers, general red tape etc gets in the way of perfectly reasonable cost minimal adjustments in my experience! £10 for a mouse is not unreasonable. But I had to fight for it.

@Staplemaple

But the person who was hot could have a fan which costs around a tenner. I know what you're saying that some things are unreasonable, but others are not yet are made out to be a huge deal. I think that is what OP was getting at, is that people who have disabilities are often not given opportunities because businesses are adamant that they couldn't possibly do x, y or z, but in this instance funnily enough they have made many adjustments.

Yes, this was exactly my thought. Or a blind. Or rearranging who sits where, even if that means moving the whole department of three people and the filing cabinet.

I mean, does the employer want to solve this or can they not be bothered?

Yes, sometimes there will be actual needs, not just preferences, which can't be accommodated. But come on!

"11:50Staplemaple

I think the fact that you feel someone should not be in the workforce because of opening or closing a window (which again, no one has control over anyway) demonstrates the point about most not making even reasonable adjustments nicely."

I think you are twisting and exaggerating massively. Nowhere did I say that person should not be in the workplace. You really shouldn't twist things that massively. It's totally unfair. I was demonstrating a point where adjustments are not always reasonable.

@lljkk

OP: can you explain what support you didn't have before that has appeared since February due to covid control measures? I'm not following very well.

I'm not speaking specifically. I actually don't work at the moment due to disability (not something that someone would be able to make adjustments for etc )

My point is not the specifics, although it does seem to have now become that.

My point is, that I feel that the world has been given a taste of what life is like when you have to constantly think of your health and what you're able to do and how to safely do it. And they don't like it...(understandably) . And a LOT of changes have been made to make work as safe as possible.

However, prior to this when it has been disabled people needing adjustments, or , goodness me just some understanding that actually, we do have to consider our health when we make plans (for example I have missed out on many social events due to someone being unwell and I have not been able to attend because the risk to me if I caught the illness would be too great).... We aren't really considered , or its too much hassle etc etc

It's not so much that I want xyz changing before, or that xyz has been difficult. It's just that SUDDENLY now there is a global health situation, it's possible for absolutely massive changes to be made to ensure safety , but before when individuals have needed things, it's often too difficult, or a fight, or just not possible

"11:49Staplemaple

But the person who was hot could have a fan which costs around a tenner"

Nope. It was the middle of a heatwave and the fans they already had were just blowing hot air around. And what if other people in the office had disabilities which meant they needed fresh air. You have to consider the bigger picture.

" I know what you're saying that some things are unreasonable, but others are not yet are made out to be a huge deal. I think that is what OP was getting at, is that people who have disabilities are often not given opportunities because businesses are adamant that they couldn't possibly do x, y or z, but in this instance funnily enough they have made many adjustments."

Because they have had to, for the safety of the wider population. I dont disagree with that point.

I still can't understand since you can't be specific. Seems like others believe they understand so you'll probably get discussion you wanted.

@NotShiny

"11:49Staplemaple

But the person who was hot could have a fan which costs around a tenner"

Nope. It was the middle of a heatwave and the fans they already had were just blowing hot air around. And what if other people in the office had disabilities which meant they needed fresh air. You have to consider the bigger picture.

" I know what you're saying that some things are unreasonable, but others are not yet are made out to be a huge deal. I think that is what OP was getting at, is that people who have disabilities are often not given opportunities because businesses are adamant that they couldn't possibly do x, y or z, but in this instance funnily enough they have made many adjustments."

Because they have had to, for the safety of the wider population. I dont disagree with that point.

Because they've had to. For the wider population.

My point exactly

It's possible to make HUGE changes for the wider population.

But when it's not the wider population, and it's people with disabilities...it's often the case (and not always, of course, some people do make accomodations), that it's just too much trouble and we have to fight for it.

Also, the wider picture ? So someone is a tad inconvenienced by a raised desk or an open window or whatever small issues seem to be brought up here, goodness knows....so ... That small inconvenience might be something than enables the disabled person to work. Would that be so bad????