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Do people really still believe that the balance of evidence doesn't support the widespread used of face coverings and mask wearing to reduce Covid 19 transmission?

60 replies

bumblingbovine49 · 13/07/2020 17:37

Because if so, I really can't see how you come to that conclusion.
This is only based on the first 2 pages of a Google search on ' Evidence for mask wearing' so I am willing to be convinced otherwise but this seems to me to me to be even more convincing than I had thought . Of course if it just because you don't want to wear one, that is different.

Face covering/Mask wearing – evidence that they help reduce Covid 19 transmission

PRO
July 2020 Face Masks Against COVID-19: An Evidence Review - We recommend that public officials and governments strongly encourage the use of widespread face masks in public, including the use of appropriate regulation

June 2020 The Lancet- l " The use of face masks was protective for both health-care workers and people in the community exposed to infection, with both the frequentist and Bayesian analyses lending support to face mask use irrespective of setting. Our unadjusted analyses might, at first impression, suggest use of face masks in the community setting to be less effective than in the health-care setting, but after accounting for differential N95 respirator use between health-care and non-health-care settings, we did not detect any striking differences in effectiveness of face mask use between setting

June 2020: University of Califonia San Francisco. mnemonic that Chin-Hong likes is the “Three W’s to ward off COVID-19:” wearing a mask, washing your hands, and watching your distance.
“But of the three, the most important thing is wearing a mask,” he said. Compared to wearing a mask, cleaning your iPhone or wiping down your groceries are “just distractors.” There’s little evidence that fomites (contaminated surfaces) are a major source of transmission, whereas there is a lot of evidence of transmission through inhaled droplets, said Chin-Hong. “You should always wear masks and socially distance,” said Rutherford. “I would be hesitant to try to parse it apart. But, yes, I think mask wearing is more important.”

June 2020: Stamford University. The timing of these new recommendations is critically important. Across the country, communities are beginning to end shelter-in-place and to return to work and community settings. Nonmedical face masks will become an increasingly important way, in conjunction with frequent hand washing and social distancing, to prevent the resurgence of disease

June 2020 : Health affairs research article. The study provides evidence that states in the US mandating use of face masks in public had a greater decline in daily COVID-19 growth rates after issuing these mandates compared to states that did not issue mandates. These effects are observed conditional on other existing social distancing measures and are independent of the CDC recommendation to wear facial covers issued on April 3.

June 2020 : NPR news. This month, the real world provided anecdotal evidence to back that assessment: The head of the local health department in Springfield, Mo., reported that after two hair stylists tested positive for the coronavirus, none of the 140 clients and six co-workers potentially exposed came down with COVID-19. As The Washington Post reports, officials said the two hair stylists wore cloth masks. According to a statement from the health department in Springfield, the salon also had other policies in place, such as distancing salon chairs and staggering appointments.

May 2020 DELVE – Data Evaluation and Learning for Viral Epidemics Face masks could offer an important tool for contributing to the management of community transmission of Covid19 within the general population. ….. Our analysis suggests that their use could reduce onward transmission by asymptomatic and pre-symptomatic wearers if widely used in situations where physical distancing is not possible or predictable, contrasting to the standard use of masks for the protection of wearers. If correctly used on this basis, face masks, including homemade cloth masks, can contribute to reducing viral transmission.

May 2020 : Forbes Currently the advice is to wear a mask if you are going to go to an enclosed area where you may expose yourself to other people. OK, that last part may have come out wrong. Rather, it is to protect others from what fluid droplets may be coming from you. Well, that may not leave quite the right impression, but you get the picture.
Outside in the open, the wind may blow away such droplets. However, in a store or other inside location, your emitted droplets could end up in someone else’s lungs.

April 2020: Wired In a nutshell: The Face Mask Debate Reveals a Scientific Double Standard
No one complained about the lack of evidence for 20-second hand-washing. So why did we treat face masks differently?

April 2020 Journal of nursing studies In summary, there is a growing body of evidence supporting all three indications for respiratory protection – community, healthcare workers and sick patients (source control). The largest number of randomised controlled trials have been done for community use of masks by well people in high-transmission settings such as household or college settings. There is benefit in the community if used easily, with hand hygiene and if compliant.

Universal face mask use is likely to have the most impact on epidemic growth in the community, given the high risk of asymptomatic and pre-symptomatic transmission .

NEUTRAL

Jun 2020 Centre for Infectious Disease and Policy. "It's actually not helpful for scientists to hide behind a curtain of certainty. There is uncertainty about masks. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be wearing them," Kriebel said. Instead of clamoring for scientific studies to back up mandates on mask use, Kriebel argues for more transparency in public health messaging. "I would say, 'Mask use is our best judgment right now, and we will tell you if we get more evidence," he said.

"The world is much messier than we would like to admit," said Kreibel. "We do our best and admit our uncertainty."

May 2020 Science Media Centre A number of responses to the DELVE study above. Most are not saying masks are harmful just that more evidence is needed

ANTI
June 2020 Reference The conversation National and international public health bodies now recommend that members of the public use masks in places where it’s difficult to maintain social distancing, such as on public transport. We strongly urge readers to carry on with good hand hygiene and social distancing, not touching their face and using reusable (rather than disposable) face coverings – and safely disposing of them at the end of their useful life

May 2020 Medical Express Social distancing and handwashing are still the best. In the meantime, Saxinger advises sticking with what we already know for sure. "There is a risk that people who wear masks will feel perhaps too confident and behaviors may change," she said. "To be honest, masks are unlikely to be a substitute for maintaining distancing and handwashing—those are our really solid, proven, core measures right now."

OP posts:
KatherineJaneway · 14/07/2020 07:31

[quote openplankitchen]@KatherineJaneway I along with the vast majority of Britain have been living with the consequences of not wearing a mask before 24 July. [/quote]
That's wasn't my point, but you knew that. It will be mandatory in shops from the 24th July. If you choose not to comply from that date, then you face any consequences.

openplankitchen · 14/07/2020 07:34

As I said I will have a scarf to hand and cover my face with it briefly if required.

JacobReesMogadishu · 14/07/2020 07:47

I think if there’s any chance it can help reduce the spread then we wear them. I’m glad it’s being made law. Even if the science is wrong (unlikely) and it doesn’t help Or doesn’t help as much what’s the harm in wearing them? Anyone with a genuine medical reason will be exempt (hopefully not many) and every else needs to get a grip or stay at home.

Ickabog · 14/07/2020 07:48

I think if there’s any chance it can help reduce the spread then we wear them.

Unless you're in a school building...

JacobReesMogadishu · 14/07/2020 07:49

@Hollyhead

I will risk breaking this rule at times - not where I deem it to be necessary (small shops, lots of people) but if I’m browsing in a deserted store it doesn’t make sense. I’ve just got back from Aldi it was an aisle per person 30 mins before closing, why should I wear one in that situation. There should have been better guidance/encouragement.
What about the staff? Did you not use a checkout?
JacobReesMogadishu · 14/07/2020 07:51

@Ickabog

I think if there’s any chance it can help reduce the spread then we wear them.

Unless you're in a school building...

Well quite. But I don’t go into schools.

I’d be happy if it was made compulsory in Schools but I get the argument that it might make teaching more difficult? Having small kids having to wear them for six hours would not be nice, whereas most people should be able to manage 20 mins for a grocery shop.

There’s also the arguement that reducing the spread in shops and therefore the overall community will reduce the spread/risk in schools even without the mask wearing.

Nymphadora · 14/07/2020 07:51

www.molly-watt-trust.org/shop These were recommended as best ones for communicating with Deaf people .
Not perfect but biggest clear section.
Rub soap on the clear sections to stop it misting up.

TheGreatWave · 14/07/2020 08:04

@openplankitchen

I think we need more evidence as to whether the virus is airborne (in which case face coverings wont help at all).

I think wearing a face covering increases risk of transmission to the individual because they are worn incorrectly and are uncomfortable, encouraging the wearer to touch face more

I think the reusable ones can't simply be taken on and off all day. Again this would be increasing contamination for the wearer

I think the disposable ones are causing huge problems with litter and waste already

I think they reduce our ability to communicate. They muffle our voices. Hide our emotions. Make teaching impossible.

So whatever evidence there is imo it's not that simple. And I would never chose to wear one

I agree with this. I'll wear one but I will only go anywhere when I absolutely have to.
seven201 · 14/07/2020 08:16

I don't wear one at the moment unless I'm in a place where you have to. I have no problem wearing one in the shops when the rules change. I bought my 4 year old daughter some when I was in gap yesterday in case she wants to wear one, since everyone else will be.

What I do have a problem with is that in September I'll be standing in a packed classroom with 30 secondary age kids all facing me. I am terrified of that. I think pupils and staff should all be in visors personally. Quite a lot of shop staff seem to be opting for them in my local town.

Hollyhead · 14/07/2020 10:05

@JacobReesMogadishu well, I would wear one at checkout - but they are all now behind plastic screens so again, I don't really see the point.

bumblingbovine49 · 14/07/2020 13:49

Google searches bring up results according to how often and of course how heavily promoted a site is, I wouldn't expect it to give a representative sample.
One might conclude that public opinion is shifting, or that those with power and influence (money) wish it to shift.
The fact that the first two pages of a google search has more pro articles than anti is meaningless scientifically. You would need to sample the data in a neutral way, that would take a lot more work

This is true and I am aware of the possible biases and limitations of this. However given that most people can't even be bothered to read the fairly short summary I posted, I don't believe they are going to do the actual large amount of work needed to access and summarise the information in a more accurate and neutral way.

And yet despite this there are any number of posters referring to the fact that in the past we were told they wouldn't help, why should we believe that they will now? Hmm' There is so much wrong with that logic, I can't be bothered to outline it

Also that they don't work because ...... (fill in as required) stated in such a certain manner, you would imagine they were experts

If you don't want to wear masks then just say that regardless of whether they work or not you don't want to wear them. If you are going to emphatically state that they don't work, at least make sure you have done the absolute bare minimum (as my first post attempts to do) to see if that is likely to be true.

Based on what I found, given all the caveats you list, my conclusion is that masks are more likely to help than not and that this is more based on quite recent work than what was known in March.

I just wish people would be aware of the strong influence of their personal desires and needs on any interpretation of guidance given re masks and social distancing etc. They don't necessarily need to change their opinion, just a little more humility in understanding that their view is not necessarily the right one, just the one they can live with

I will admit my tendency is to think community face covering are likely to work well enough to warrant using them but I am open to new evidence that genuinely says otherwise. As I said I was expecting the search to show up a more nuanced view and was quite surprised that it didn't

OP posts:
cyclingmad · 14/07/2020 19:53

I don't qant to wear a mask regardless of what science says so I won't be going to shops or anywhere else that requires them its my choice, my decision and thats that.

SaltyAndFresh · 14/07/2020 19:57

Why the sudden push for face masks now?
Because 2-3 months ago the NHS and the luckier care homes were waiting too long, and then some, for adequate PPE. When the supply chains got it here, a lot of it was out of date and had the expiry date covered with a sticker.

This. We have been systematically lied to and I can't believe that so many are too stupid to see it. Of course masks will help, but while they were in short supply the government couldn't admit it.

Derbygerbil · 14/07/2020 20:57

I think wearing a face covering increases risk of transmission to the individual because they are worn incorrectly and are uncomfortable, encouraging the wearer to touch face more.

Given that Covid transmission is understood now to be primarily airborne through droplets, and potentially aerosols, your theory is outdated and no longer held by health bodies worldwide.

Imagine you were standing in front of, and talking with, someone infectious with Covid. Would you feel more protected if you both wore masks, or not? I can’t really see how it wouldn’t be the former.

Your view seems to be the equivalent of saying “it’s safer to leave the radioactive material out in the side rather than in the lead container, as some people don’t always put the lid on the lead container properly”.

openplankitchen · 15/07/2020 04:00

@Derbygerbil

If the virus is airborne there is no point in masks

I get that some people 'feel more protected' wearing them as you say. Not a reason to make them mandatory though.

amusedtodeath1 · 15/07/2020 04:37

The problem is the government spent quite a lot of time telling us masks were useless, largely because they needed all the masks they could get for key workers, now they've changed the goal posts and people are not buying it. Personally I have no problems wearing a mask, i hate it but I just have to suck it up I suppose.

DianaT1969 · 15/07/2020 04:50

In fairness, the government did keep tell the country in 5pm news briefings that masks didn't work and were not part of the solution. It takes time to adapt to U-turns.
Things are contradictory at the moment. If we work from home, we can sit at a desk for 7 hours and have conference calls without having to wear a mask. We can drink coffee and have lunch without a mask. Our risk of transmission is low. Yet for the sake of the economy, companies are being urged to force workers back into town centre offices. To spend money on public transport, buy a sandwich from Pret and a take away coffee. All unpleasant due to wearing a mask. Strange times!

AdoreTheBeach · 15/07/2020 05:55

That there has to be a debate on why to wear a mask and people being so selfish not to wear them, this I think is why the government was loath to make it mandatory (people can’t counted in to follow common sense). All the bitching and moaning. Conspiracy nut jobs. It’s just horrendous.

If you’ve got anxiety, practice wearing a mask. Try a few styles, materials to see what works best for you. Practice self soothing when wearing the mask - you can breath, doesn’t interfere with breathing, your mind may make you think that. So practice wearing one in your home so you won’t be touching it constantly when you’re out. It’s really very simple. Just that some people are simple too, simply idiotic selfish tw_ts. (Sorry just so frustrated by these idiots).

Oblomov20 · 15/07/2020 06:08

I'm not convinced by the evidence and studies. I agree with pp who asked about it being airborne and evidence of supermarket v school kids?
Of course I'll wear one if I have to, ie now it's mandatory as if 24th.

Derbygerbil · 15/07/2020 06:52

@openplankitchen

If the virus is airborne there is no point in masks

Confused

The virus is generally contained in the water droplets in your breath. These are minute but are far larger than air molecules. A face mask/covering captures the droplets in its fabric, but not the air itself, which being only nanometres in size can pass through. The process is no more complex than using a tissue when sneezing.

Would you sneeze on someone and say: “I don’t see the point of a tissue as the droplets in my sneeze are airborne, and there’s no guarantee that the tissue I use will catch every last droplet,
so it might as well go everywhere”.

Alternatively, your logic would imply that mosquito nets are useless because mosquitoes are airborne Confused.

nether · 15/07/2020 06:54

I don't think those who just don't want to wear masks are actually remotely interested in the evidence. They just don't like being told what to do.

Those who have difficulty do have a period in which to acclimatise to them,
and there will be a few who have to be exempt (which might limit their options on what they can do - ones bodily condition has already defined how much one should go out and about, so I expect that to continue)

Digestive28 · 15/07/2020 07:01

I’m not convinced that telling people who aren’t sure about wearing masks they are stupid (because of the evidence) or selfish (as done on here) is a great way to try and persuade them.

byvirtue · 15/07/2020 07:16

I object to it being mandatory, I certainly see situations where I would happily wear one an airplane flight, a train journey in an enclosed space, a busy shop with no limits on people entering etc

Popping into a virtually empty supermarket late at night in an area of the country with a low occurrence of covid,? no the risk of transmission is minimal so what’s the point?

People are frustrated with the governments continued infantilisation. I don’t agree with it being mandatory we are grown ups and can use our own discretion based on actual risk in the situation we are entering.

MoreW1ne · 15/07/2020 07:17

To be honest none of this thread will help convince or support those not in favour of wearing masks.

I commented earlier up thread and almost responded to the OPs reply, but having read more of their comments and others its clear this thread is not about understanding the opinions of others, or even having a genuine discussion/debate about the pros/cons and peoples feelings on masks.

Its just a bitter moan by people who are frustrated with the choice of others. You'll never successfully help people change their opinion by attempting to approach a discussion from such a high lofty opinion of "fact".

The OP says they want a discussion and want to be convinced but a quick scan of their responses reveals this isn't really true.

You could argue the OP is the idiot (along with those calling non mask wearers selfish/idiots) as all this thread/comments will do is likely to do is convince others not to wear masks.

Derbygerbil · 15/07/2020 07:22

@openplankitchen

I apologise as I realise I think we’re using “airborne” differently. I’m using it to mean simply carried through the air, whereas I think you’re meaning aerosolised particles. You’re right that there is evidence that Covid can be carried by aerosols in certain conditions, which is why face masks (unless they are medical grade) aren’t a silver bullet and are only part of any solution.