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Do people really still believe that the balance of evidence doesn't support the widespread used of face coverings and mask wearing to reduce Covid 19 transmission?

60 replies

bumblingbovine49 · 13/07/2020 17:37

Because if so, I really can't see how you come to that conclusion.
This is only based on the first 2 pages of a Google search on ' Evidence for mask wearing' so I am willing to be convinced otherwise but this seems to me to me to be even more convincing than I had thought . Of course if it just because you don't want to wear one, that is different.

Face covering/Mask wearing – evidence that they help reduce Covid 19 transmission

PRO
July 2020 Face Masks Against COVID-19: An Evidence Review - We recommend that public officials and governments strongly encourage the use of widespread face masks in public, including the use of appropriate regulation

June 2020 The Lancet- l " The use of face masks was protective for both health-care workers and people in the community exposed to infection, with both the frequentist and Bayesian analyses lending support to face mask use irrespective of setting. Our unadjusted analyses might, at first impression, suggest use of face masks in the community setting to be less effective than in the health-care setting, but after accounting for differential N95 respirator use between health-care and non-health-care settings, we did not detect any striking differences in effectiveness of face mask use between setting

June 2020: University of Califonia San Francisco. mnemonic that Chin-Hong likes is the “Three W’s to ward off COVID-19:” wearing a mask, washing your hands, and watching your distance.
“But of the three, the most important thing is wearing a mask,” he said. Compared to wearing a mask, cleaning your iPhone or wiping down your groceries are “just distractors.” There’s little evidence that fomites (contaminated surfaces) are a major source of transmission, whereas there is a lot of evidence of transmission through inhaled droplets, said Chin-Hong. “You should always wear masks and socially distance,” said Rutherford. “I would be hesitant to try to parse it apart. But, yes, I think mask wearing is more important.”

June 2020: Stamford University. The timing of these new recommendations is critically important. Across the country, communities are beginning to end shelter-in-place and to return to work and community settings. Nonmedical face masks will become an increasingly important way, in conjunction with frequent hand washing and social distancing, to prevent the resurgence of disease

June 2020 : Health affairs research article. The study provides evidence that states in the US mandating use of face masks in public had a greater decline in daily COVID-19 growth rates after issuing these mandates compared to states that did not issue mandates. These effects are observed conditional on other existing social distancing measures and are independent of the CDC recommendation to wear facial covers issued on April 3.

June 2020 : NPR news. This month, the real world provided anecdotal evidence to back that assessment: The head of the local health department in Springfield, Mo., reported that after two hair stylists tested positive for the coronavirus, none of the 140 clients and six co-workers potentially exposed came down with COVID-19. As The Washington Post reports, officials said the two hair stylists wore cloth masks. According to a statement from the health department in Springfield, the salon also had other policies in place, such as distancing salon chairs and staggering appointments.

May 2020 DELVE – Data Evaluation and Learning for Viral Epidemics Face masks could offer an important tool for contributing to the management of community transmission of Covid19 within the general population. ….. Our analysis suggests that their use could reduce onward transmission by asymptomatic and pre-symptomatic wearers if widely used in situations where physical distancing is not possible or predictable, contrasting to the standard use of masks for the protection of wearers. If correctly used on this basis, face masks, including homemade cloth masks, can contribute to reducing viral transmission.

May 2020 : Forbes Currently the advice is to wear a mask if you are going to go to an enclosed area where you may expose yourself to other people. OK, that last part may have come out wrong. Rather, it is to protect others from what fluid droplets may be coming from you. Well, that may not leave quite the right impression, but you get the picture.
Outside in the open, the wind may blow away such droplets. However, in a store or other inside location, your emitted droplets could end up in someone else’s lungs.

April 2020: Wired In a nutshell: The Face Mask Debate Reveals a Scientific Double Standard
No one complained about the lack of evidence for 20-second hand-washing. So why did we treat face masks differently?

April 2020 Journal of nursing studies In summary, there is a growing body of evidence supporting all three indications for respiratory protection – community, healthcare workers and sick patients (source control). The largest number of randomised controlled trials have been done for community use of masks by well people in high-transmission settings such as household or college settings. There is benefit in the community if used easily, with hand hygiene and if compliant.

Universal face mask use is likely to have the most impact on epidemic growth in the community, given the high risk of asymptomatic and pre-symptomatic transmission .

NEUTRAL

Jun 2020 Centre for Infectious Disease and Policy. "It's actually not helpful for scientists to hide behind a curtain of certainty. There is uncertainty about masks. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be wearing them," Kriebel said. Instead of clamoring for scientific studies to back up mandates on mask use, Kriebel argues for more transparency in public health messaging. "I would say, 'Mask use is our best judgment right now, and we will tell you if we get more evidence," he said.

"The world is much messier than we would like to admit," said Kreibel. "We do our best and admit our uncertainty."

May 2020 Science Media Centre A number of responses to the DELVE study above. Most are not saying masks are harmful just that more evidence is needed

ANTI
June 2020 Reference The conversation National and international public health bodies now recommend that members of the public use masks in places where it’s difficult to maintain social distancing, such as on public transport. We strongly urge readers to carry on with good hand hygiene and social distancing, not touching their face and using reusable (rather than disposable) face coverings – and safely disposing of them at the end of their useful life

May 2020 Medical Express Social distancing and handwashing are still the best. In the meantime, Saxinger advises sticking with what we already know for sure. "There is a risk that people who wear masks will feel perhaps too confident and behaviors may change," she said. "To be honest, masks are unlikely to be a substitute for maintaining distancing and handwashing—those are our really solid, proven, core measures right now."

OP posts:
cologne4711 · 13/07/2020 17:41

I don't know why people are in such denial. They see pictures of Japan and South Korea where everyone wears them, see their rates of infection and death are very low and still don't "get" it.

Other European countries have made masks mandatory in many instances.

I understand telling people to keep away from medical grade but any sort of face covering will help stop germs being breathed out and in.

Hollyhead · 13/07/2020 17:51

I don't really understand people's problem with wearing them, but I am against making them mandatory - it just creates problems because there are always grey areas.

So for instance, I'm not a big fan of mask wearing, however, I've started wearing them in smaller shops and when shops are busy. This feels proportionate and correct. However, because I'm not a fan, I have become quite partial to doing my big shop at 9pm at night when the supermarket is practically deserted, in this situation, other than at the till it feels like overkill. However, if they were mandatory I'd then be breaking a rule which would really be unecessary.

lljkk · 13/07/2020 18:09

There's a spike in Hong Kong cases in spite of "near universal" face mask wearing. Look up Ben Cowling on Twitter. Not a cure-all.

Orangeblossom78 · 13/07/2020 18:13

Hmm. The WHO mentioned about things such as risk from taking masks on and off, touching the face, and also that it can mean people rely on mask wearing instead of other measures, so there is a bigger picture to consider

bumblingbovine49 · 13/07/2020 18:45

Look up Ben Cowling on Twitter. Not a cure-all.

Thanks, I will look him up but in no way am I (or any of the pro articles actually) suggesting it is a cure all. Pretty much all of them say that a face covering is part of the picture but is likely to be an important part. Of course masks on their own wont stop the spread.

OP posts:
Cornettoninja · 13/07/2020 19:01

@lljkk

There's a spike in Hong Kong cases in spite of "near universal" face mask wearing. Look up Ben Cowling on Twitter. Not a cure-all.
Nobody is saying masks are a cure all??? They’re saying they significantly reduce overall infections.

I had a quick look at the twitter you recommended and that’s exactly what Ben Cowling is saying, the article he posted supports that (hongkongfp.com/2020/06/29/i-was-wrong-the-evidence-is-clear-masks-work/).

Hong Kong May be having a spike but their numbers are currently much more manageable (52 compared to our 530 today) meaning that hopefully other measures i.e isolation, track and trace, will stop it spiralling out of control.

I’m utterly baffled how people are convincing themselves that masks aren’t a worthwhile measure to take.

Uhoh2020 · 13/07/2020 19:34

For me personally (I haven't read all your OP btw just answering the initial question)
I'm wondering why the sudden push for face masks now when it was dismissed so often by government/science or whatever excuse was given, so early on when infection rates were higher than they are now? To me it looks like a locking the gate after the horse has bolted action

Ormally · 13/07/2020 20:25

Why the sudden push for face masks now?
Because 2-3 months ago the NHS and the luckier care homes were waiting too long, and then some, for adequate PPE. When the supply chains got it here, a lot of it was out of date and had the expiry date covered with a sticker. Go back and look at a random history of threads on the pages in the coronavirus topic, 4 or 5 months old at the most - the differences in views, preoccupations and expectations in that time are chilling in some places but always very interesting now we have some weeks of hindsight. The 'mask phase' will join the general flow in a month or 2.

Cornettoninja · 13/07/2020 21:12

To me it looks like a locking the gate after the horse has bolted action

As another poster put rather succinctly the other day ‘there’s plenty more horses in the stable’.

The advisory against masks earlier in the pandemic was a massive mistake that arose from panic around obtaining PPE for health professionals. The WHO’s standard advice for respiratory virus outbreaks had included community face coverings for a long time before covid and there are plenty of studies looking at their effectiveness in the original SARS outbreak which is one of the reasons they’re more common in Asian countries that experienced SARS and MERS.

The ball was dropped months ago but it wasn’t because masks aren’t a valuable tool as much as world leaders were panicking about their lack of resources.

YoureBreakingMyHeartCecilia · 13/07/2020 21:14

I’m with you on masks OP.

They’re a fucking NIGHTMARE for people like my DH though, who are deaf and dependent on lip-reading Sad It really does make communication literally impossible for him with anyone wearing one.

Not a reason not to wear them!!

Very Difficult though.

Moondust001 · 13/07/2020 21:18

Obviously people really still do believe it, or don't actually care. So other than, at great length, pontificating on your own views, was there a point to the thread?

MoreW1ne · 13/07/2020 21:24

But still not recommending/allowing them for a lot of schools....I think part of the issue is trust. People don't trust the advice from the government and struggle to see why it's now changing again when the science hasn't really changed that much and they were so anti before.

Equally why can 2000 people be together with no distancing and no masks in a school for hours yet you should now wear a mask to pop into a shop with 10 people inside that you're meters apart from and only in for 5minutes. Stupid and inconsistent.

Either they're great for reducing risk or they're not. The government dont explain their very changeable opinions or their very mixed messages regarding mask use. So why would people who haven't either the time or inclination to read about masks themselves believe the advice now.

Hollyhead · 13/07/2020 23:13

I will risk breaking this rule at times - not where I deem it to be necessary (small shops, lots of people) but if I’m browsing in a deserted store it doesn’t make sense. I’ve just got back from Aldi it was an aisle per person 30 mins before closing, why should I wear one in that situation. There should have been better guidance/encouragement.

SengaStrawberry · 14/07/2020 00:41

Nobody is saying masks are a cure all??? They’re saying they significantly reduce overall infections.

Yes this. And if overall infections can be reduced by mask wearing in shops it might make places where masks can’t be worn less of a problem.

bumblingbovine49 · 14/07/2020 00:45

Obviously people really still do believe it, or don't actually care. So other than, at great length, pontificating on your own views, was there a point to the thread?"

I was not pontificating on my own views, I have deliberately reproduced the first two pages of a Google search and would have done this whatever the result . I just might have changed the title slightly.

. I have seen a lot of people post on here that masks make things worse and/or there is no evidence that they do a thing to stop transmission. I was doubtful of this but many have been so emphatic and seem so sure I wondered if I was wrong and they had a point so I did a Google search. I was actually surprised how many 'pro' articles and papers I found, most posted in the last month or so . I thought there would be a better balance of pro, neutral and anti articles and papers but as you can see, it massively pro, much more so than I expected. I thought others might find the massive skew towards pro articles interesting. Many people ( me included ) base their opinion on a couple of.aericles they have read maybe early in the pandemic and haven't kept up ( why should.they ?I haven't )

OP posts:
bumblingbovine49 · 14/07/2020 00:50

Either they're great for reducing risk or they're not. The government dont explain their very changeable opinions or their very mixed messages regarding mask use

Actually the opinons changed because the evidence became clearer because more research was done. Saying 'but you told us masks were useless 3 months ago why should we believe you now?' oesn't take this fact into account and is not particularly helpful or useful

So why would people who haven't either the time or inclination to read about masks themselves believe the advice now

My post was to give people who don't have time or the inclination to look up this much themselves a reasonable summary they can scan

OP posts:
openplankitchen · 14/07/2020 06:51

I think we need more evidence as to whether the virus is airborne (in which case face coverings wont help at all).

I think wearing a face covering increases risk of transmission to the individual because they are worn incorrectly and are uncomfortable, encouraging the wearer to touch face more

I think the reusable ones can't simply be taken on and off all day. Again this would be increasing contamination for the wearer

I think the disposable ones are causing huge problems with litter and waste already

I think they reduce our ability to communicate. They muffle our voices. Hide our emotions. Make teaching impossible.

So whatever evidence there is imo it's not that simple. And I would never chose to wear one

KatherineJaneway · 14/07/2020 06:54

Face coverings will be mandatory in shops in England from the 24th July.

Hercwasonaroll · 14/07/2020 06:54

When someone can explain to me how I need one for a supermarket shop, but students don't need one to be in school all day, then I'll start listening.

Schools guidance clearly says they aren't needed in schools. So why are they needed in a supermarket?

Ickabog · 14/07/2020 06:56

@Hercwasonaroll

When someone can explain to me how I need one for a supermarket shop, but students don't need one to be in school all day, then I'll start listening.

Schools guidance clearly says they aren't needed in schools. So why are they needed in a supermarket?

This is the question I would like to know the answer to as well.
openplankitchen · 14/07/2020 06:59

@KatherineJaneway I still won't wear one if mandatory. I'll wear a scarf that I can pull up briefly if required. I'll print off exemptions for my children

openplankitchen · 14/07/2020 07:00

Plus obviously won't be going shopping for fun anymore. Sad as we used to enjoy that as a family

homemadecommunistrussia · 14/07/2020 07:07

Google searches bring up results according to how often and of course how heavily promoted a site is, I wouldn't expect it to give a representative sample.
One might conclude that public opinion is shifting, or that those with power and influence (money) wish it to shift.
The fact that the first two pages of a google search has more pro articles than anti is meaningless scientifically. You would need to sample the data in a neutral way, that would take a lot more work.

KatherineJaneway · 14/07/2020 07:24

[quote openplankitchen]@KatherineJaneway I still won't wear one if mandatory. I'll wear a scarf that I can pull up briefly if required. I'll print off exemptions for my children [/quote]
That's your choice and you'll have to live with any consequences.

openplankitchen · 14/07/2020 07:26

@KatherineJaneway I along with the vast majority of Britain have been living with the consequences of not wearing a mask before 24 July.