What would be the consequences of refusing the coronavirus vaccine?

[Redolent]

So it’s being reported today that a sixth of all UK adults wouldn’t get vaccinated for coronavirus, and up to a third are unsure. I had a chat with my own sister-in-law few days ago and her family is also ‘worried about what they’re going to pump into us’...

I can’t see the vaccine being compulsory - it would just further fuel conspiracy theories - so what might be the consequences of turning down a vaccine? For instance, restrictions on international travel, countries refusing admittance? Employers requesting evidence of vaccination?

I honestly despair that people do absolutely no research at all into things like this and then state nonsense as though it is fact.

The vaccine is absolutely, 100% NOT BEING RUSHED THROUGH. All the steps will be completed in the usual way. It does not normally take years to develop a vaccine because it's impossible to do it safely more quickly. It normally takes a long time to secure funding, carry out trials with a disease that exists at low levels in the community etc.

The idea that we cannot come up with a coronavirus vaccine is misplaced. Nothing is guaranteed but we have coronavirus vaccines for chickens and cows, there is a MERS vaccine performing well in trials. The whole world is working on this with unlimited resources. I would be very surprised if we don't end up with several.

Have it, don't have it whatever but do some proper research.

I am not never aggressive myself by the way, I can be very arsey. But I do have a fear of too much state power.

The power to control lives. It frightens me. And compulsory vaccination is control. Because once it is done, it can't be undone. Wearing a seatbelt is nothing like that, I can do it on Monday and not on Tuesday if I change my mind.

The vaccine will be a risk. A tiny tiny risk, smaller than the virus, but it should be a choice.

I think it will be a choice, labyrinth, just as the 'flu jab has been. It's not like MMR which all children really should have.

I agree with the poster above you that it will a while before we have the vaccine anyway, it must be thoroughly tested before dispensed to the general public.

I’ll be having it as soon as I can personally, but as for “my body my choice” we have seen just how easily our choices can be removed for the greater good of society.

Personally I’d like all vaccination to be mandatory, except for those who can’t have them for health reasons, and who rely on everyone else being vaccinated to protect them.

I’m not sure they will make this vaccination when it comes compulsory though but as with some other vaccines it may be required as others have said for things like certain jobs/travel into some countries

It's not uncommon for vaccines to be mandatory for NHS staff already. Anyone performing exposure prone procedures is required to be vaccinated against Hepatitis B, for example - no Hep B jab, no work. New workers doing EPPs have mandatory tests for Hep C and HIV. There are similar requirements for TB, chicken pox and measles.

I don't see why making this mandatory for direct patient contact would be fundamentally different.

*Do people not have the right to choose?
You think people shouldn't have the right to choose?

That's a slippery slope right there*

What do you think has been happening the last 3.5 months?

Until 23 March we had the right to freely leave our homes for whatever purpose we wanted, to travel freely within our areas and more extensively, to sit in someone else’s private house. All of a sudden we didn’t.

I think we’ve seen only too readily how individual rights can be stamped on for the “greater good”.

*+ some employers may require vaccination

• not just healthcare or schools: many very ordinary employers may not want to run the risk of employees being off sick and maybe even their business being closed down for a couple of weeks,*

I think that’s a very good point. They may also employ staff such as older people, people on the shielded list (as was), BAME people who are at higher risk of serious illness and may not wish to take the risk of being sued if staff in those groups become infected and the employer didn’t take all reasonable steps to protect them - which may include ensuring all eligible staff were vaccinated.

Can I have an antibody test before I decide to be vaccinated?

Patient autonomy is one of the fundamental pillars to those practicing medicine.

Enforced vaccinations would mean a fundamental change to medical ethics and I’m not sure that would be a good thing.

The government won’t make a vaccine compulsory, but remaining unvaccinated is likely to result in significant restrictions on where you can go & what you can do.

Employers may insist on their employees being vaccinated, particularly if they work in healthcare, education or industries which involve significant amounts of face-to face contact indoors, eg retail, hospitality, travel.

Countries, particularly those with very low rates of covid, may require evidence of vaccination in order to allow foreigners to enter, particularly if they are from places with high levels of infection, eg U.K. &
US.

@AgeLikeWine

The government won’t make a vaccine compulsory, but remaining unvaccinated is likely to result in significant restrictions on where you can go & what you can do.

Employers may insist on their employees being vaccinated, particularly if they work in healthcare, education or industries which involve significant amounts of face-to face contact indoors, eg retail, hospitality, travel.

Countries, particularly those with very low rates of covid, may require evidence of vaccination in order to allow foreigners to enter, particularly if they are from places with high levels of infection, eg U.K. &
US.

All of that is reasonable compared to the idea of forcibly restraining someone while injecting them against their will.

All the talk of vaccination policies still avoids the question of how you prove you've had the vaccine. And how trustworthy that proof is. (Especially of reports the antibodies can disappear after a while are true).

Certificate ?
Database ?
Tattoo under the arm ?

I have just setup a company with £2.50 share capital that is going to deliver the necessary certification regime. We're probably a little over capacity at the moment (I have a computer) but I have every confidence we'll fit right in at no. 10.

I work in nhs. No way I or my kids will have an untested vaccine (and I'm very pro vaccine). If they want to take me off my patient facing role that's more than fine by me!! I'd probably be asked to phone patients instead. I very much doubt that would happen as they are already hugely understaffed.

There's absolutely no way they'd sack me.

I predict I'd be told to wear ppe. As I do already!

Will they add any vaccine to this list ?

www.gov.uk/vaccine-damage-payment

@openplankitchen - that's very sensible. You'll be pleased to know that only people enrolled in the trials get a vaccine that's only partially tested. The vaccines will be available to the general public.only once they've successfully completed testing.

But it won’t be untested

I come from a country with no jab no school / no jab no play (childcare/preschool) laws and I’m consistently baffled by the hysteria on MN when it’s suggested that the choice not to vaccinate should not be free of consequences for the individual, as that choice has implications for others and for society as a whole.

The ‘undemocratic’ thing is particularly baffling. Can anyone explain what would be undemocratic about a democratically elected Parliament voting through a law proposed by a democratically elected government to do this? At least, why it would be any less democratic than any other laws passed under the farce of FPTP?

For Covid, we are at a different stage from other vaccinations as we don’t have near-herd levels of immunity, and the pandemic is causing impacts on everyone driven largely by behavioural factors.

If we end up in a situation where insufficient people are vaccinated to ensure herd immunity and it is a choice between keeping some businesses or services closed/restricted, or restricting access to those places to those who either have been vaccinated or medically cannot be vaccinated, I’m not sure that it is more ethical to keep the services/businesses closed (with attendant loss of income/unemployment/social impacts depending on the service) than to open the service in a more safe way (ie excluding those who can be vaccinated but choose not to so that the service or business itself carries a much lower infection rate).

Think of a flight - should flights stay extremely restricted (some airlines go out of business, thousands lose their jobs, risk of some borders staying closed so people can’t see their families in other countries) but stay available to the ‘healthy’ unvaccinated, or should they be allowed to run more normally but be accessed by only the vaccinated and those who can’t be?

Yes sorry I should have said inadequately tested.

I totally agree @JassyRadlett

@openplankitchen - again, not a problem, there has been no reduction in the standard of testing for covid vaccines compared to any other vaccine.

But it won’t be inadequately tested either

@labyrinthloafer

Thank you. It's all very interesting food for thought. In the US, we had to show our immunisation records for school entry ( and private University/ grad school too). Similarly I've had to show immunisation records when I've lived / travelled in the developing world, where people still get very ill / die from Typhoid, Tetanus, Polio etc and other diseases that have been eradicated in the developed world. I've never really thought about this as a "personal freedom" issue as much as a "public health responsibility" issue.

As others have said, rather than "forcing" people to have the vaccine, I imagine it would simply be people not being able to access some state-sponsored / government services.

FWIW, Measles mortality rate is 0.2%, whereas Covid mortality rate is 1-2%, so 10 x higher than Measles. And despite concerns, most people have MMR jabs.

It's good you have faith in the vaccine. When there is sufficient data regarding its risks I'll be happy. Until then I wouldn't even consider it.

I guess maybe a year after it's rolled out

[quote DGRossetti]Will they add any vaccine to this list ?

www.gov.uk/vaccine-damage-payment[/quote]
Probably. What's your point?

Well we'd offer it to the people who wanted it first as it may take a while. If not enough take it up then we can reasonably bar people who refuse from situations where they may endanger others. Your body yes, but our bodies don't want your virus laden breath thanks very much.

Really though I think most people will accept it apart from a small hard core of anti-vaxxers.

Taking the vaccine is like being in a sinking lifeboat where everyone is baling out frantically. You could sit back and refuse to help, but who wants to be that person?