What would be the consequences of refusing the coronavirus vaccine?

[Redolent]

So it’s being reported today that a sixth of all UK adults wouldn’t get vaccinated for coronavirus, and up to a third are unsure. I had a chat with my own sister-in-law few days ago and her family is also ‘worried about what they’re going to pump into us’...

I can’t see the vaccine being compulsory - it would just further fuel conspiracy theories - so what might be the consequences of turning down a vaccine? For instance, restrictions on international travel, countries refusing admittance? Employers requesting evidence of vaccination?

@Iwalkinmyclothing

DGRossetti

Iwalkinmyclothing
I suppose similar consequences to refusing any other vaccines. What are those?

Death ?

God, don't give some people ideas. They'll be lining up to terminate those refusing the vaccine on the grounds that it endangers life not to have it.

judging by some of the remarks I've seen on here in the past 4 months, I think that is likely.

Considering that they have been trying for years and still haven't discovered a vaccine for ANY coronavirus, far less the current one, I don't think you need worry about your hypothetical scenario OP.

I personally have no issue with compulsory vaccination in normal circumstances, because I believe the science plus am aware I am protecting those who truly can't. However I understand the desire for personal autonomy and rejection of state interference.

This is not a normal circumstance. Our country has virtually ground to a halt. 10,000s dead many left with serious long term health issues. We are potentially looking at massive job losses and deep recession. What happens if we have another wave and another lockdown?

Covid is not going away until we have lasting herd immunity, until it mutates to a lesser risk, or we have a vaccine. I really struggle to comprehend the 'but what aboutery' of those would still reject a vaccine.

Fine, reject this hypothetical vaccine. Make sure you socially isolate from the rest of us until it or you are no longer a threat.

Immunisation requirements are not really new. Many "Western" countries require immunisations as a prerequisite for school entry (many US states, Australia, Finland, Italy etc), so not exactly "draconian" or "totalitarian" regimes. Most of these have exemptions for medical or religious reasons as well.

@kaleishorrid

I wouldn't have it. My sister works in pharma - bringing vaccines to the public - and she says vaccines typically take about eight years to come to market. This has been rushed through

it is not being rushed through. Every stage is being completed - it is just being done at a faster speed. e.g 500 people in my hospital were recruited, screened and then vaccinated within 2-3 weeks for phase 2 of the oxford trial. Doctors and nurses were redeployed to work on this so they could get it done as quickly as possible. Recruitment and screening was done within a few days. I imagine in normal circumstances , recruitment alone would take weeks if not months. So the stages aren't been missed - they are just being done at lightening speed with huge manpower input.

@Redolent

Handjob

I know someone who worked for him several years ago when he was at DCMS, and that was genuinely his nickname amongst staff.

This reminds me to an extent of some of debate when compulsory seat-belt wearing was introduced. There was a campaign against making them compulsory because by doing so, we would reduce the availability of organs for transplant..... you know, because fewer people would die in accidents. And that would be unfair, because more transplant patients would die before they got an organ. Anyone see the flaw in this argument?

And then there was the what if your car catches fire and you are trapped because the seatbelt won’t undo.... missing the point that a) that’s a very rare occurrence; b) you probably only survived the accident anyway because of the seatbelt.

It’s been a long time - and while there are still idiots who drive round without seatbelts, they are a small minority. Most people recognise that the advantages of wearing a seatbelt vastly outweigh the risks they pose, and therefore the sensible thing for most people is to wear them. Or they don’t want to get a fine, perhaps.

I believe the same calculation applies to every vaccine which is licensed for use. Yes, there are risks, but they are vanishingly small compared to the risks of the disease itself. Otherwise we wouldn’t bother to vaccinate.

And Covid vaccines will have been through all the necessary trial steps before being approved.

This reminds me to an extent of some of debate when compulsory seat-belt wearing was introduced.
There were also complete morons who argued that wearing a seat-belt would stop them being thrown clear if they had an accident, as if going through the windscreen at speed was actually better then being restrained by a seat-belt, idiots.

Seat belts is not the same at all.

I am genuinely at compulsory vaccination.

What happened to democratic Britain? We were a normal country not long ago!

Mind you, Italy is talking of sectioning people who refuse covid treatment, which is not dissimilar.

What happened to democratic Britain? We were a normal country not long ago!
What's undemocratic about making the vaccination compulsory? If the government chosen by the majority decides to make vaccination a legal requirement there's nothing undemocratic about it.

I don't see why it would be undemocratic either. Especially it was a condition not a requirement. So you only get the benefit of services if you vaccinate.

Am all for having choice and personal autonomy. Comes with a responsibility and consequences though.

It is really not unusual to attach conditions like this to vaccinations.

@BlueBrian

What happened to democratic Britain? We were a normal country not long ago! What's undemocratic about making the vaccination compulsory? If the government chosen by the majority decides to make vaccination a legal requirement there's nothing undemocratic about it.

How come that doesn't apply to 51% women in the population (majority) and 49& men ?

"so what might be the consequences of turning down a vaccine? For instance, restrictions on international travel, countries refusing admittance? Employers requesting evidence of vaccination?"

Worst case scenario.

Death

@labyrinthloafer

I am curious if your objection is about the vaccine itself, vaccines in general, making it compulsory or government "interference" in general? Or a combination? What would be your suggestion as an alternative public health plan?

I work in Pharma, I have worked on vaccines in the past and will do again. I am very pro-vaccine and would always recommend someone has vaccinations when offered.

But, it is a massive step for the UK government to make a medical treatment compulsory and I will be very disappointed it happens, we all have the right to refuse medical treatment. Not least because I don't think it is necessary, we have a good record in this country of vaccination, e.g. we have the highest rates of flu vaccination in the western world. And even with the entire worldwide available capacity making vaccines there will be a rollout of the vaccination with HCPs and the most vulnerable being offered the vaccine first. I suspect by the time Jo Public actually gets offered the vaccine there will have been millions of others already vaccinated and it won't seem so scary.

Fine, reject this hypothetical vaccine. Make sure you socially isolate from the rest of us until it or you are no longer a threat.

Permanently socially isolating from many of the posters on this thread sounds like a very attractive option. Nothing to do with me being a threat, more to do with people's attitudes.

@romdowa

There also needs to be an understanding that some people just cant have vaccinations. Due to medical issues I cant have them, all this talk of excluding people who arent vaccinated from society would be discriminatory, if enforced against people who cant be vaccinated. Fwiw I'm not against vaccinations and I think they are important, I'm just weary of taking peoples choice from them and of punishing others for something beyond their control.

Actually excluding those who willfully chose not to vaccinate from society will go a long way towards protecting those who medically can't. My neice was blue lighted into hospital last year after catching a illness that is regularly vaccinated against. She cannot have vaccinations due to a severe allergic reaction when she first had one. This illness was brought into the school by children of parents who didn't believe in vaccinations but due to healthy immune systems, the children only displayed very mild cases and the parents still deemed them well enough to attend school, even after the doctor confirmed the diagnosis of illness. Very likely due to the mentality that if their fit and healthy children were only mildly inconvenienced then what is the harm... obviously school hadn't made DSis aware that there were children not vaccinated nor that they had this illness until after niece became very ill. The next day she was blue lighted into hospital, then my DSis was also blue lighted into hospital a few days later after having caught it from her daughter (immuno comprimosed and therefore the vaccinations hadn't produced antibodies when she was little).

This is why i fully support excluding those who are fit and healthy and therefore don't worry about the impact of preventable illness as it will likely have very minimal impact on them and therefore chose to not vaccinate as far from mainstream society as possible.

Ultimately children legally have to recieve a education. My DSis cannot home school without plunging them into poverty, nor can she provide my neice with the same quality of education as is provided in school. So how exactly is she supposed to protect my neice or herself from potentially deadly illness if people are allowed to invoke their right to chose to not vaccinate without penalty to themselves, regardless of it potentially being deadly to another?? This is such a issue she actually with support from medical consultants and very close monitoring attempted to revaccinate my neice when she was older in the hopes that she may have been able to have ghe vaccine. She couldn't and still cannot have the vaccinations. But this is the position antivaxxers put her, and the medical staff, GPs and consultants who care for them under, that it was safer to risk a bad reaction attempting to vaccinate again in the hope it would be possible then it was to risk catching a preventable illness, because the preventable illness is almost guaranteed to cause a much more severe and deadly reaction.

@Triangularbubble
Firstly, 🤣

Secondly, get a grip. Lockdown/pandemic excuses a lot of mental health issues, but that's quite a groundbreaking brain fart. It's not the first time I've read nonsense like this on Mumsnet vaccination discussions.

However, after you've had another wee think, do come back and explain in more detail how and why that approach will work, and what other scenarios and contexts it could or should apply to.

I have no problem in either my children or myself having vaccinations, indeed I have some sympathy for making them compulsory for school education. However I have a major problem in my children taking a vaccine that has been rushed through development, testing and production at breakneck speed and under massive pressure to bring it to market when a normal vaccine takes 5 to 10 years. This is not to foil hat time but basic prudence.

There is currently nothing in UK law to allow compulsory vaccination.
This is true but its quite easy to change the law quickly.
If it is made compulsory though i think it more likely that it will be in the form of people having to prove they have had it to access certain services or to travel as that is easier to police than just to say eveyone must have it.

I suspect by the time Jo Public actually gets offered the vaccine there will have been millions of others already vaccinated and it won't seem so scary.

Exactly. I think they are stockpiling vaccine in case it works. Will still take a while to vaccinate all of us.

Maybe there will be a thread in a years time about how unfair it is that a poster has to wait for their vaccine, while others (prssumably vulnerable, HCP and carers) get it first.

On the assumption we get one some time soon. If we're really lucky, if will be a seasonal vaccine like flu

For those saying the Oxford University vaccine is being rushed through it really isn't. I found this from Sarah Gilbert the head of the vaccine development team very reassuring. I will be there with my sleeve rolled up at the earliest opportunity that's for sure!

I believe in vaccinations and mine and my children are all up to date. I qualify for the flu vaccination and get that each year. I would seriously consider the covid vaccine and more than likely get it.

The flu killls on average 17,000 each flu season in England and that's with an annual
Vaccination programme. One of the lowest take up sections of people who are offered the flu vaccination is nhs staff.

I disagree with compulsory vaccination. Complications while rare do happen and we should all have the right to refuse vaccines and for me it's a slippery slope.

Here we are discussing whether a non existent vaccine should be compulsory and we don't know side effects, how effective it is it? How long does it last? How often do you need to get it? All of that needs to be known before it being compulsory is even on the table for discussion,

[quote YankeeinKingArthursCourt]@labyrinthloafer

I am curious if your objection is about the vaccine itself, vaccines in general, making it compulsory or government "interference" in general? Or a combination? What would be your suggestion as an alternative public health plan?[/quote]
I just think forcing medical treatment onto to people is unethical and it is dangerous to treat this vaccine differently to others. A medical treatment is very binary. It is a small step from compulsory vaccination to other compulsory medical interventions.

I am very rule abiding and cautious generally, I would in all likelihood take the vaccine (have had all the others as did my kids), but I would be concerned if we go down this road.

I also think the issue with vaccine take-up is lack of trust and misinformation. We need, somehow, to come together and make the case for things. This country is getting too aggressive.