So what about schools?

[goldpendant]

I read someone on here the other day suggesting we need to build more schools.

I've been thinking about it and couldn't agree more - if indeed social distancing will be required for the foreseeable. If it isn't the drop it now, and get back to normal on school. The kids are jumping on each other in the park after school anyway.

But if they insist on distancing, build more schools and fast track teacher training. Invest like we did in the Nightingales; like it mattered. Like it's a looming crisis FGS.

I'm furious for the thousands of children being let down. I never thought they should have closed in the first place.

The vast divide between rich and poor, state and private provision only grows wider. It will be HUGE.

What do we need? Protests?

The one country that could have definitively answered that question has apparently failed to collect any data. Bucking a global trend, Sweden has kept day care centers and schools through ninth grade open since COVID-19 emerged, without any major adjustments to class size, lunch policies, or recess rules. That made the country a perfect natural experiment about schools’ role in viral spread that many others could have learned from as they reopen schools or ponder when to do so. Yet Swedish officials have not tracked infections among school children—even when large outbreaks led to the closure of individual schools or staff members died of the disease.

Do you understand the difference between anecdote and data?
They are not the same thing.

Nobody says teachers are immune. They are just no more likely to die than anyone else. Which is not very likely for the under 70s with no underlying health conditions.
Which is pretty similar to flu. Which we don't shut schools for.

No, I wanted your source about the death rates of teachers in Sweden compared to the public.

My point about the over 15s is people who mention Sweden blithely ignore the fact that even they do not have the oldest children in school or universities open.

They also have extremely dissatisfied teachers with high numbers of school closures due to staff illness (despite actively discouraging self isolation) and draconian attendance regulations which are not very beloved by MN in general.

Why are you asking me about anecdote and data : those are the words of the New Scientist. They are bemoaning Sweden's lack of gathering of data.

Your comment makes no sense...

Which is pretty similar to flu. Which we don't shut schools for

Ah. I see. No point in arguing then.

Peony, I meant in terms of population density and school setup - aren't there class sizes much smaller for example? And are kindergartens closed? So reception / y1?

I'm not panicking BTW, I'm more concerned about community spread than me personally.

No kindergartens are not closed, classes are similar size to UK in the cities at least in state schools. Don't know about very rural areas, but then the UK is like that too.

Jun
20:11 11 Jun

Open schools did not create outbreaks, Sweden says

Maddy Savage
BBC News, Stockholm
Sweden's decision to leave schools open for under-16s during the pandemic did not lead to any major outbreaks of Covid 19, according to the country's education minister.
Anna Ekstrom said research by the Swedish Public Health Agency showed that Swedes working in education - including teachers, daycare staff and teaching assistants - had not been more likely to be diagnosed with coronavirus than those in other occupational groups.
Schools for older pupils and universities have been given the go-ahead to reopen from 15 June - but for summer schools and courses only.
Sweden is set to relax a number of other national recommendations in the coming days.
From Saturday, Swedes without any Covid-19 symptoms can travel freely within the country. And on Sunday elite sports can start up again, although no fans will be allowed to watch events.

New scientist is talking arse. The swedes HAVE been collecting data.
See BBC article I pasted, for English comment.

Ah. I see. No point in arguing then.

No there is no point in arguing as you have decided this virus is uniquely terrifying and a killer for anyone. Despite risk of death for children being 1 in 3.5 MILLION but 🤷‍♀️

Yeah I can't argue with stupid. Not worth it.

I agree.

Phineyj I suspect it will be more to do with the fact the university will be using their buildings for teaching in September. We're having to adhere to social distancing too which has massively reduced our capacity. Space is an issue in normal times never mind now!

@JassyRadlett

A limited number of contacts in a closed system like a primary school,

Indeed. A primary school is a relatively closed system. No system can be totally closed.

I said nothing about bubbles.

Well if you are only talking about primary schools and not the bubbles of 15 pupils + 1 adult then you have even less understanding of a closed system than I thought.

Swedish privacy laws allow health care personnel and school officials to notify parents and school staff about an infection only “if a person’s life is at risk.”

Crikey. So you send your kids to school, normally. A teacher is off with a positive result, and the school doesn't tell you. Your child brings it home and you dont know they have it, so you visit granny. Who dies. That's a thing, isn't it.

here is no extra budget for schools for purchasing anti bac extra soap , washstands , any PPE. Money for extra cleaning and cleaners can only be claimed back if there is an outbreak.

Why do teachers not deserve the same protection as people in other occupations? There seems to be complete absence of duty of care by the government.

So are we now looking at Sweden as the way forward ?? Really

OverTheRainbowLiesOz no we have had to clean as we go in our bubble of 15 , including toilets. No sink just sanitiser and hope for the best

I know as I have a family member who is a teacher of the key workers group in a deprived school. No social distancing in the bubble, children sent home with CV and she has to clean room / toilets herself and buy the hand soap & sanitiser as there is none! Also no PPE. Absolutely disgraceful.

I find the anti teacher comments on MN utterly abhorrent considering the situation.

I’m sure I have said this before but the comments like why do teachers think they are ‘so special’ drive me mad

Someone said abandon distancing in schools. So everywhere else it applies but not schools: discrimination much?

There is evidence children catch it at the same rate. Over 15/yound adults spread it at the same rate as adults. See ONS data.

We have no Ppe. If the Dfe has said ok
Wear masks/and or face shields most teachers would have felt like their lives mattered and felt safer. However we are being told we are not allowed. Look at the children in other countries they are also wearing masks. We are a huge anomaly. Current situation is we are given zero protection- that is why we are worried.

And before someone harps on about well x y z groups have to deal with it. It’s not a race to see who comes of worst. That doesn’t make it ok. And why the actual fuck does it always have to be teachers that come off worst because you all hate them!

We didn’t close school. Government did. There is no point in trying to deny opening schools will not affect the spread, it will.

Finally did some of you realise teachers are not robots. We have our own families. Own lives (I know right how dare we). Just saying work all weekends all holidays add hours to the day willy nilly fails to realise that it is a job and we are human. Just because you have a chip on your shoulder for whatever reason. Try replacing the work teacher with another professions name and see how ridiculous some of the statements made are.

Well-said, Davincitoad.

Well if you are only talking about primary schools and not the bubbles of 15 pupils + 1 adult then you have even less understanding of a closed system than I thought.

Fripp, I clarified to relatively/comparatively and yes, I have a fair understanding of the contact dynamics of different economic systems.

You are being unnecessarily rude and aggressive, though, which I’ve seen on other threads. I get that you have a clear position and feel under attack. I’m not attacking you or demanding schools open, I’m not criticising teachers, I’m simply point out why restrictions will operate differently and why looking for logic at an individual rather than a system or societal level will feel futile and frustrating.

While you are here jessy, what do you think or believe is a feasible situation for secondary schools, with all the ramifications you acknowledge ,and given that even Sweden has remote learning for those over 15?

I always find you present a reasoned point of view FWIW but may get accidentally lumped in with the views of others because - yes- teachers do feel under attack by a subset of posters on MN.

JassyRadlett

I clarified to relatively/comparatively

There is no relatively/comparatively to open and closed systems, it either is or isn't.

You are being unnecessarily rude and aggressive, though,

Being nice hasn't got me anywhere, this is what you end up with.

which I’ve seen on other threads.

Bringing up posting history. So you are rude as well what a surprise. I have stopped trying explain to and appease those that are wrong by using gentle language.

I’m not attacking you or demanding schools open, I’m not criticising teachers

I haven't said that you have, I said that your use of open and closed systems is wrong. Which you still haven't admitted.

@Piggywaspushed

Just also read there is no extra budget for schools for purchasing anti bac extra soap , washstands , any PPE. Money for extra cleaning and cleaners can only be claimed back if there is an outbreak.

Unlike any other developed country you could name.

and if the school have no money that will be added to their reserves.

? How many empty offices with meeting rooms are lying unused at the moment.

I've seen this suggested a lot of times on MN now.

However the minute you increase school capacity the more likely those offices will be needed by the companies again. So it doesn't work. Unless you say that children have to go to school but businesses still can't open.

And it's not as simple as let's build more schools just like they've built hospitals.
They've created 6 or 7 hospitals across the UK.

We would need almost double the number of schools we currently have, if we are to follow the government guidelines.

Using the bubble system you ideally also need 2 members of staff per classroom in order to allow the teachers to have at least a lunch or toilet break.

You can't force retired (or left) teachers to return. Many have left for a reason.

You can't force TAs to teach and many aren't qualified to do so either. Will you pay them more if they start teaching? Many TAs are paid a very small amount tbh.

Through this thread I get the impression that this is really nothing to do with education and almost entirely about childcare.

Hence the thought that just anyone, regardless of being qualified, can come and start teaching.

I think people have to start being honest about what they actually want.