So what about schools?

[goldpendant]

I read someone on here the other day suggesting we need to build more schools.

I've been thinking about it and couldn't agree more - if indeed social distancing will be required for the foreseeable. If it isn't the drop it now, and get back to normal on school. The kids are jumping on each other in the park after school anyway.

But if they insist on distancing, build more schools and fast track teacher training. Invest like we did in the Nightingales; like it mattered. Like it's a looming crisis FGS.

I'm furious for the thousands of children being let down. I never thought they should have closed in the first place.

The vast divide between rich and poor, state and private provision only grows wider. It will be HUGE.

What do we need? Protests?

[DBML]

Some of the ideas here tickled me!

Nightingale schools - assuming pupils would have to travel, but there aren’t enough buses to allow social distancing. My sons school are not putting on any transport and parents are expected to take their children to and collect their children from school.

Bring back retired teachers or teachers who have left (presumably for other reasons) - I asked my friend who left teaching recently because she “fucking hates the paperwork” if she’d come back? First she reminded me that she has another job now and secondly she said “I will never step into a classroom again, I don’t care how much you offer to pay me”. Most teachers leave for good reason.

[JassyRadlett]

I’m very sorry for your loss. Sounds like a very tough day.

[Aragog]

@JassyRadlett Apologies. I didn't realise I had asked a question so I wasn't looking for specific replies. I just made a comment that we need to be honest about what we want really, based on what I had read on this thread and many others. I then responded in general.

Thank you for saying what your priority is for you and your child. I understand for some children their wellbeing is being affected by all these changes.

Unfortunately I have been out much of the day at my FIL's 'scattering of the ashes' as he died during lockdown and this has been the first available time. I have then been home and been finishing off the home learning for the start of this week. So, my mind hasn't been specifically on individual MN posts today I am afraid.

I will finish this post by saying that I am unlikely to reply for the rest of the evening as I am going to spend some time with dh and dd after a difficult day. So I may not respond to any specific replies for a while.

[JassyRadlett]

I really don't think school is necessarily what people want, especially this close to summer. It's some available childcare provision.

It’s a bit frustrating to be asked to be honest, to be honest in response, and then to have that totally ignored.

My priority is my child’s wellbeing. A huge part of restoring that for him will be not just ‘school’, but his school, even if it’s smaller classes, not his usual teacher, and feeling very different.

As I said above I’m doing what I can for him in terms of social contact with other children in ad hoc ways. It isn’t even close to adequate and because it is inconsistent the benefit to his mental health is patchy at best.

For me childcare is important but secondary. I have some flexibility in my work, and can wfh, so I have come to terms that I will have no downtime until 2021, pretty much. It is exhausting and I am broken but still childcare isn’t my top priority.

[NotAnotherUserNumber]

...Not to mention that it isn’t just the money. The logistics would be impossible for that much building work. There just aren’t that many builders or enough materials.

[NotAnotherUserNumber]

@WorstGovtEver

You could easily build Nightingale schools, they just wouldn't have any teachers in them, just like the Nightingale hospitals didn't have the required amount of trained staff. Lovely publicity though. Gav will probably announce it next week. Close them quietly the first week of September.

The trouble is that there are so many more schools than hospitals. The sheer scale makes it impossible to do something for the majority of pupils. The annual schools buildings budget is already 5 billion and that is mostly just for keeping the current school buildings in a safe condition. It would cost many tens of billions of pounds to build the extra school rooms necessary to get all the pupils back in a way that won’t vastly increase the rate of infection. I think this money probably just doesn’t exist.

[BucketFullOfDinosaurs]

@Aragog where I am we can't meet up yet, so it's been weeks since we've seen anyone. But, yes, soon we'll be able to and that will be great.

DS really needs it as soon as possible! He hasn't interacted in real life with another child apart from DD since March - that's 3 months.

[Aragog]

I'm not saying it's wrong to want childcare. Not at all. For primary I know it is a massively important part of going back to work and eventually normality.

But if people start being honest and say that it's childcare then we could move forward better in some ways.

We know that there will be no school based education for all until September at the earliest in England. That's not going to change with just four weeks left before the holidays. So there is no point in rehashing the same old discussions really on that front.

What we need to look at is how to provide some much needed childcare provision so that parents can return to work now and through the summer.

That takes away the need for qualified teaching staff, and - so long as appropriate checks can be in place - more volunteers able to help, or more staff to be employed to take on the roles.

We need to be looking at how we can safely open the summer childcare provision so many rely on.

I really don't think school is necessarily what people want, especially this close to summer. It's some available childcare provision.


Socialisation can already start. However for younger children this needs parents to sort. We can meet, in England, in groups of 6. Many people are doing this already, based on the number of children I've seen in parks round here. But obviously for younger children parents need to be able to arrange meet ups between them to enable that.
Round here children are playing out, albeit at a distance. Mainly aged about 10+ but I've also seen and know of younger doing this but the parents being there to oversee and supervise.

[BucketFullOfDinosaurs]

@Aragog "Through this thread I get the impression that this is really nothing to do with education and almost entirely about childcare."

For me, it's partly childcare (I'll have to quit my job if schools don't go back fully and my DC end up being in on different days (one at Nursery, one at school)), but it's also about socialisation. Ideally I'd love them to have their usual standard of education, but not at the expense of teachers and TAs being run ragged.

If things have to change for a couple of months, so be it.

I'd be happy with parent volunteers helping out (with background checks, obviously), with TAs teaching lessons (this has happened before in DS class, for the odd day here and there) if it means he's in school, socialising with other kids. He's only in Yr 1, and obviously it's completely different above foundation stage, but at his age he can learn a lot by playing and cutting and sticking for a few weeks.

I'd happily volunteer to go in on one of my days off, and make pasta necklaces or help them paint cardboard boxes or something as long as there's a TA or someone in the room who knows the kids well, and can lead the actual activity. It'll be better for DS than being at home with me all day for 3 days a week.

His teacher has enough to do without needing to teach half the class some days and then provide home learning for the other half on those days.

Teachers are best placed to decide on the details of how things could work; they need government funding and back up, and parents who are willing to do what they can.

I've heard of people who've offered to go in and help out, and would have been fab, but there's too much that needs to be worked out - eg one friend who works in the "education centre" at a local zoo volunteered to help in her DCs school - Principal would have taken her in a heartbeat, but can't, because she's not sure what would happen if this person had an accident in the school, or a pupil fell while she was there (even if the teacher was also there and my friend was at the other end of the room) - he could have investigated, but he's snowed under with other things. He needs the government to say that volunteers will be covered by the same insurance as regular staff, and subject to the same safeguards etc, but they've done nothing. Government won't take responsibility for anything, and are throwing it back on schools to take decisions.

[JassyRadlett]

It was you that claimed that the human system of primary schools is a "relatively closed" system.

Compared to the more open systems I mentioned? Yep, I’m comfortable with describing a primary school as relatively closed compared with a shopping centre.

I am saying that a "relatively closed" system is open. you seem to be backing my point and not yours.

I’ve already said I was imprecise in not first making clear that a truly closed system in human terms is impossible in my view. I’m not going to rend any garments by way of further apology.

However, we seem to agree that there are degrees of openness in a human system, so I think we are in the same place. You don’t like them to be referred to as ‘more closed’ or ‘relatively closed’ rather than ‘more open’ or ‘relatively open’ but honestly, we’re now both derailing the thread with semantics.

[FrippEnos]

There is a lot of scholarly thought and practice on human social systems theory that disagrees with you - including on the question of whether a human system can ever truly be closed. That’s fine, there are a lot of different uses and applications of systems theory and not everyone signs up to the idea that no human system can ever truly be closed.

It was you that claimed that the human system of primary schools is a "relatively closed" system.

I am saying that a "relatively closed" system is open. you seem to be backing my point and not yours.

[JassyRadlett]

Sorry I requoted the previous posted I was replying to! @Aragog I was responding to your comment that people needed to be honest about what they want. I know I’m very unlikely to get it any time soon (desperately hoping the government will allow summer camps to open but they’re not engaging with the camps at the moment) but I’ll be honest that it’s my current priority.

[JassyRadlett]

I haven't said that you have, I said that your use of open and closed systems is wrong. Which you still haven't admitted.

I’ll bite! I’ve been honest on similar threads. The single thing that I would prioritise above all others for my school-aged child is regular, consistent social interaction and the opportunity to do any learning alongside peers. He struggles to socialise through screens - it makes him feel ‘too sad’ afterwards.

Since the loosening of lockdown we’ve managed some scraps of contact around work and others’ work and while it’s been massively beneficial to him, it isn’t nearly enough.

I think the ‘either education or childcare’ binary is really unhelpful and massively underplays the value of schools.

[JassyRadlett]

There is no relatively/comparatively to open and closed systems, it either is or isn't.

I haven't said that you have, I said that your use of open and closed systems is wrong. Which you still haven't admitted.

There is a lot of scholarly thought and practice on human social systems theory that disagrees with you - including on the question of whether a human system can ever truly be closed. That’s fine, there are a lot of different uses and applications of systems theory and not everyone signs up to the idea that no human system can ever truly be closed.

I apologise for bringing up my impressions of you from previous threads. You have been aggressive and rude here, seemingly without immediate provocation (except that you thought that someone might be wrong).

[WorstGovtEver]

You could easily build Nightingale schools, they just wouldn't have any teachers in them, just like the Nightingale hospitals didn't have the required amount of trained staff. Lovely publicity though. Gav will probably announce it next week. Close them quietly the first week of September.

[Aragog]

Through this thread I get the impression that this is really nothing to do with education and almost entirely about childcare.

Hence the thought that just anyone, regardless of being qualified, can come and start teaching.

I think people have to start being honest about what they actually want.

[Aragog]

And it's not as simple as let's build more schools just like they've built hospitals.
They've created 6 or 7 hospitals across the UK.

We would need almost double the number of schools we currently have, if we are to follow the government guidelines.

Using the bubble system you ideally also need 2 members of staff per classroom in order to allow the teachers to have at least a lunch or toilet break.

You can't force retired (or left) teachers to return. Many have left for a reason.

You can't force TAs to teach and many aren't qualified to do so either. Will you pay them more if they start teaching? Many TAs are paid a very small amount tbh.

[Aragog]

? How many empty offices with meeting rooms are lying unused at the moment.

I've seen this suggested a lot of times on MN now.

However the minute you increase school capacity the more likely those offices will be needed by the companies again. So it doesn't work. Unless you say that children have to go to school but businesses still can't open.

[sleepydragons]

@Piggywaspushed

Just also read there is no extra budget for schools for purchasing anti bac extra soap , washstands , any PPE. Money for extra cleaning and cleaners can only be claimed back if there is an outbreak.

Unlike any other developed country you could name.

and if the school have no money that will be added to their reserves.

[FrippEnos]

JassyRadlett

I clarified to relatively/comparatively

There is no relatively/comparatively to open and closed systems, it either is or isn't.

You are being unnecessarily rude and aggressive, though,

Being nice hasn't got me anywhere, this is what you end up with.

which I’ve seen on other threads.

Bringing up posting history. So you are rude as well what a surprise. I have stopped trying explain to and appease those that are wrong by using gentle language.

I’m not attacking you or demanding schools open, I’m not criticising teachers

I haven't said that you have, I said that your use of open and closed systems is wrong. Which you still haven't admitted.

[Piggywaspushed]

While you are here jessy, what do you think or believe is a feasible situation for secondary schools, with all the ramifications you acknowledge ,and given that even Sweden has remote learning for those over 15?

I always find you present a reasoned point of view FWIW but may get accidentally lumped in with the views of others because - yes- teachers do feel under attack by a subset of posters on MN.

[JassyRadlett]

Well if you are only talking about primary schools and not the bubbles of 15 pupils + 1 adult then you have even less understanding of a closed system than I thought.

Fripp, I clarified to relatively/comparatively and yes, I have a fair understanding of the contact dynamics of different economic systems.

You are being unnecessarily rude and aggressive, though, which I’ve seen on other threads. I get that you have a clear position and feel under attack. I’m not attacking you or demanding schools open, I’m not criticising teachers, I’m simply point out why restrictions will operate differently and why looking for logic at an individual rather than a system or societal level will feel futile and frustrating.

[CallmeAngelina]

Well-said, Davincitoad.

[Davincitoad]

I’m sure I have said this before but the comments like why do teachers think they are ‘so special’ drive me mad

Someone said abandon distancing in schools. So everywhere else it applies but not schools: discrimination much?

There is evidence children catch it at the same rate. Over 15/yound adults spread it at the same rate as adults. See ONS data.

We have no Ppe. If the Dfe has said ok
Wear masks/and or face shields most teachers would have felt like their lives mattered and felt safer. However we are being told we are not allowed. Look at the children in other countries they are also wearing masks. We are a huge anomaly. Current situation is we are given zero protection- that is why we are worried.

And before someone harps on about well x y z groups have to deal with it. It’s not a race to see who comes of worst. That doesn’t make it ok. And why the actual fuck does it always have to be teachers that come off worst because you all hate them!

We didn’t close school. Government did. There is no point in trying to deny opening schools will not affect the spread, it will.

Finally did some of you realise teachers are not robots. We have our own families. Own lives (I know right how dare we). Just saying work all weekends all holidays add hours to the day willy nilly fails to realise that it is a job and we are human. Just because you have a chip on your shoulder for whatever reason. Try replacing the work teacher with another professions name and see how ridiculous some of the statements made are.

[OverTheRainbowLiesOz]

I know as I have a family member who is a teacher of the key workers group in a deprived school. No social distancing in the bubble, children sent home with CV and she has to clean room / toilets herself and buy the hand soap & sanitiser as there is none! Also no PPE. Absolutely disgraceful.

I find the anti teacher comments on MN utterly abhorrent considering the situation.