So what about schools?

[goldpendant]

I read someone on here the other day suggesting we need to build more schools.

I've been thinking about it and couldn't agree more - if indeed social distancing will be required for the foreseeable. If it isn't the drop it now, and get back to normal on school. The kids are jumping on each other in the park after school anyway.

But if they insist on distancing, build more schools and fast track teacher training. Invest like we did in the Nightingales; like it mattered. Like it's a looming crisis FGS.

I'm furious for the thousands of children being let down. I never thought they should have closed in the first place.

The vast divide between rich and poor, state and private provision only grows wider. It will be HUGE.

What do we need? Protests?

[Flagsfiend]

Every other country I've seen pictures of seems to have sinks in the playground. I'm assuming they weren't there before covid, so I wonder who funded them...

[ItsSummer]

If you’re going to ask TAs to teach, then you need to pay them the same as teachers!! TAs are appallingly paid.

[Davincitoad]

@peonypower wow lovely caring attitude!!! 2m was put in for a reason. But you know let’s let schools just crack on. Sweden is not doing so well!

[CallmeAngelina]

Why should teachers be "special cases?"
Indeed.
Why should no social distancing be required for them, when it's 2 metres (or even 1 metre) for everyone else.

[thebookeatinggirl]

The toxic animosity towards teachers and schools, that is typified by many many posts on here, and in the general populace, is a real 'read the room' moment for you OP.

Do you really think there are people chomping at the bit to return or train or volunteer to teaching at a time when recruitment and retention was already at crisis point, and now the situation is worse?

And who do you think will be organising all these new spaces, resourcing them, setting them up, doing the Health and Safety checks, insurance, safe guarding lead roles, recruiting and training staff, organising the learning... headteachers are already on their knees. They've worked through half term and Easter. They are already working ridiculous hours in school, organising bubbles, and Educare, and FSM vouchers, and food packages and home check.

The government already has form for just dumping all the decision making, organising and responsibilities directly onto schools. No extra budget, no additional anything. Schools simply don't have the capacity available to do anything more. It's not a lack of 'can do' attitude.

Unless the government actually step up and organise a separate body to do it all, I can't see it happening. There probably is mileage in some of the ideas, but expecting schools to make it all happen is irresponsible and unrealistic. And I can't wait for the inevitable blaming of schools and teachers if it doesn't happen.

[JassyRadlett]

Ffs, I am getting SO SICK of reading this. No one has said they are different to the rest of the working population, but I have to wonder why I couldn't enter the timber merchant's today (because, you know, Covid) and why I'm not allowed to enter the GP surgery from Monday without a face mask "as per Government guidelines," yet in schools, all we need to do is wash hands frequently (forget the lack of soap though).

Because none of social distancing is about avoiding individual infections, it’s about cutting paths of transmission by reducing the overall number of contacts in society as far as possible and practical and, where possible, avoid paths of infection that aren’t traceable.

I’m not sure how many times that needs saying.

[HathorX]

I'm not worried about coronavirus. I have got a spot for my toddler in nursery starting in August. I'd happily switch to being a teacher but I wouldn't get qualified in time to be useful. It's not about buildings, is it. It's about personnel.

[CallmeAngelina]

reducing the overall number of contacts in society as far as possible

So they reckon opening schools widely is a good idea?

[Backyard72]

2nd wave of teachers :)

[starrynight19]

it’s about cutting paths of transmission by reducing the overall number of contacts in society as far as possible and practical and, where possible, avoid paths of infection that aren’t traceable

And that’s difficult enough being in with a bubble of 15 children who aren’t social distancing.
Imagine if it was a whole school plus all the adults if we scrapped the need to social distance.

[JassyRadlett]

And that’s difficult enough being in with a bubble of 15 children who aren’t social distancing.
Imagine if it was a whole school plus all the adults if we scrapped the need to social distance.

You’re looking at it from a micro perspective rather than the societal question of what closer contacts do you enable/prioritise (even if it means keeping tougher restrictions in place elsewhere).

A limited number of contacts in a closed system like a primary school, where secondary contacts are fairly easy to trace, is very unlike for instance a department store, a theatre, a train. The more you can limit those contacts the fewer paths of transmission there will be but as ever it’s important to remember that the restrictions are not aimed at eradication, but control.

[Piggywaspushed]

Jessy, if you had spent much time walking or bussing to schools in the morning, stopping off at the Shell for your crisps and Coke, going to a schools with overcrowded corridors and then mixing with 30 different people once every hour and then at break time mixing with more, then lunch, then the way home....

Then you would know how much your statement about ease of tracing doesn't make any sense.

Dr Jenny Harries has explained multiple times that secondary schools remain closed because of the very high level of social interactions of teenagers.

[FrippEnos]

when did this bubble system become a closed system?

[Phineyj]

My Head tried to rent an additional building from the university down the road this week, so we can get all the pupils back in Sept while complying with social distancing. He was told it wasn't allowed because the building's legal purpose was 'higher education'. How did they get away with turning the O2 into a hospital?!

[JassyRadlett]

So they reckon opening schools widely is a good idea?

It’s about choosing which systems you prioritise and which you hold back on. As a percentage of the number of overall daily contacts in society schools aren’t overwhelming on a whole-of-society level, and they’re a relatively controlled system - you know who’s there, so you know the primary contacts if one person gets ill.

Different countries will make different choices. Some have prioritised getting more children back into school, particularly at primary. Some have prioritised that with no distancing, some haven’t. Others will prioritise the economy, which will mean schools closed or partly longer depending on the level of interaction.

[JassyRadlett]

when did this bubble system become a closed system?

Who said it was?

A school is a more closed system - a defined number of people there each day and the same people there each day - than a shop, a restaurant, or Legoland.

And of course the potential for other associated interactions, such as transport and shops, needs to be taken into account. The same as for decisions around reopening workplaces, or shops, or whatever else.

I’m not advocating a particular position here - just pointing out that approaching it from an the point of view of an individual (why am I not allowed to do X when I can spend a full day with 15 kids) will make it seem totally illogical when there is at least some (not always a great deal from this lot) when looked at from a whole-of-society public health point of view when they are looking at how to balance systems and overall numbers of interactions.

[FrippEnos]

JassyRadlett

Who said it was?

You did.

A limited number of contacts in a closed system like a primary school,

[peonypower]

@peonypower wow lovely caring attitude!!! 2m was put in for a reason. But you know let’s let schools just crack on. Sweden is not doing so well!

Fewer death per million than us. I think they are doing fine. Could have protected care homes better. Otherwise good.

[JassyRadlett]

A limited number of contacts in a closed system like a primary school,

Indeed. A primary school is a relatively closed system. No system can be totally closed.

I said nothing about bubbles.

[Beawillalwaysbetopdog]

A school is a more closed system - a defined number of people there each day and the same people there each day - than a shop, a restaurant, or Legoland.

I realise there is a massive societal benefit to schools opening, compared to a restaurant/shop opening. But my school is about 2000 people.

A lot come by bus, some from the other side of the city which takes them over an hour on 2 different buses. Surely this is a massive spreading risk?

[Beawillalwaysbetopdog]

[quote peonypower]**@peonypower wow lovely caring attitude!!! 2m was put in for a reason. But you know let’s let schools just crack on. Sweden is not doing so well!

Fewer death per million than us. I think they are doing fine. Could have protected care homes better. Otherwise good.

[/quote]
Sweden has a very different set-up to us society wise, have you seen how they're doing compared to their nearest neighbours?

[mrslol]

Teachers are also going to have a significant problem with childcare (like everyone else) I know of several part time teachers who would have gone back full time but can't because key worker provision is only if both parents are key workers. Similarly I know several teachers who are going to drop to part time for childcare reasons. Even if there is a mass recruitment drive or a huge number of people returning to the profession, there will probably not even be enough to replace the ones who are off or who've had to go part time.

[JassyRadlett]

I realise there is a massive societal benefit to schools opening, compared to a restaurant/shop opening. But my school is about 2000 people.

A lot come by bus, some from the other side of the city which takes them over an hour on 2 different buses. Surely this is a massive spreading risk?

I mean, that’s the public health judgement isn’t it? Which risks - public transport to work, public transport to school, people in shops, people in theme parks, people in pubs - to prioritise as they start reopening and increasing contacts between people.

I specifically talked about primary schools earlier, because I recognise the complexity of a secondary - size, how they operate and how people get there - is much greater.

[Piggywaspushed]

Ah, wonderful Sweden. So much to admire :

The one country that could have definitively answered that question has apparently failed to collect any data. Bucking a global trend, Sweden has kept day care centers and schools through ninth grade open since COVID-19 emerged, without any major adjustments to class size, lunch policies, or recess rules. That made the country a perfect natural experiment about schools’ role in viral spread that many others could have learned from as they reopen schools or ponder when to do so. Yet Swedish officials have not tracked infections among school children—even when large outbreaks led to the closure of individual schools or staff members died of the disease.

However, a scan of Swedish newspapers makes clear that school outbreaks have occurred. In the town of Skellefteå, a teacher died and 18 of 76 staff tested positive at a school with about 500 students in preschool through ninth grade. The school closed for 2 weeks because so many staff were sick, but students were not tested for the virus. In Uppsala, staff protested when school officials, citing patient privacy rules, declined to notify families or staff that a teacher had tested positive. No contact tracing was done at the school. At least two staff members at other schools have died, but those schools remained open and no one attempted to trace the spread of the disease there. When asked about these cases, Ludvigsson said he was unaware of them. He did not respond to a query about whether he would amend the review article to include them.

and...

Rodrigues works with a class of 22 preschoolers. She believes she's been exposed to the virus from her live-in fiance, who experienced the telltale symptoms and works in an airport, but she was still required to report to work when she alerted her boss she was living with a presumptive COVID-positive person.
Sweden's public health agency says people can continue going to work or school if they live with someone with the disease as long as they're not showing symptoms. The World Health Organization, meanwhile, has emphasized that asymptomatic people can and do spread the disease.
Rodrigues doesn't wear a mask because she worries she'd get fired for spreading fear.

[peonypower]

Swedish schools have been open throughout : not for over 15s

stupid 2m distancing rule and limits on class sizes Sweden has SD at schools and small class sizes anyway

infection rates among teachers are no different to any other part of the working population assuming you mean In Sweden, I'd welcome your evidence.

BIG SIGH.
Not for over 15s? So what?? What's your point there? Nit picking

No they don't. Not in the school my mother teaches at. Kids are kids.

And the my source is the Public Health Agency of Sweden. Good enough for you? you can go check the stats and FAQ in their website.

As a half swede, their culture is NOT so different to ours. Not to the point where children don't play together or hang out as teenagers or do anything massively different. I don't know what kind of freaky society you think they have there, but it's very normal.

And the death rate has been higher than Norway for sure, but (1) the deaths have been due to not protecting care homes better for the most part (2) Norway have said they regret closing schools and it wasn't necessary.

Stop panicking and look at the data. By age,