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Daily numbers, graphs, analysis thread 10

966 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 08/06/2020 19:35

Welcome to thread 10 of the daily updates.

Resource links:

Worldometer UK page
Financial Times Daily updates and graphs
HSJ Coronavirus updates
Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Centre
NHS England stats, including breakdown by Hospital Trust
Covidly.com to filter graphs using selected data filters
ONS statistics for CV related deaths outside hospitals, released weekly each Tuesday

We welcome factual, data driven, and civil discussions from all contributors 💐

OP posts:
Thread gallery
90
alreadytaken · 11/06/2020 19:48

No idea how contact tracing works, think there is a thread by tracers somewhere though.

England hospital admissions up but Scotland either missing data or none for days now and Wales figures dropped nicely today.

whatsnext2 · 11/06/2020 19:49

@Prokupatuscrakedatus

This morning DH infomed me that if blood group was the only factor his 0 would give him a better chance against C19, but my A would help me more in case of bubonic plague. And then he wondered:

"...when the greatest threat to life is the overreaction of the immune system in case of C19 - do people who suffer such a storm have a history of allergies? ...
Do you know anything about this?

I believe, but could be wrong, it’s a different bit of immune system. Allergies involve histamines whilst covid is interleukins. There are some links to auto immune diseases like rheumatoid arthritis which is why for example methotrexate was looked at as a treatment.
midgebabe · 11/06/2020 19:50

At the moment it's just getting contacts you know

The app, should it ever arrive , would enable contacts who you don't know to be identified

It would be possible to state that you were in the front row of the number 22 bus at 920, and then someone could interview people on the number 22 the next day, but that's not happening in the uk . Probably cost too much

Prokupatuscrakedatus · 11/06/2020 19:58

whatsnext
Thank you - I'll pass that on to him and he can vanish down a reading rabbit hole....

Firefliess · 11/06/2020 20:00

There seem to be a lot of well informed people on this thread, so can I ask a question about contact tracing:

As I understand it, if you test positive you fill in a form online, or a contract tracer call you, and you supply names and contact details of anyone you have been within 2m of for at least 15 mins from 48 hours before you got symptoms. The contract tracers then contact these people and tell them to isolate.

But my question is, why isn't the government simply telling us all to let out close contacts know immediately if we've tested positive? You can only supply contact details of people you know, so surely it would be quicker just to let people know yourself? The government could supply a template letter for you to send to your employer, etc telling them what they need to do. This would be faster, and people more likely to take it seriously if they know who you are, as well as potentially able to identify any additional contacts you might have forgotten about (remembering that people are ill and often feverish when being asked for this info - they might forget exactly who was at work the last two days, but their employer might have good records if they know who the infected person is)

It seems they've adapted a system designed for STDs, where there is a lot of stigma but transmission is slower, to a disease that shouldn't be stigmatized where there's a huge advantage in encouraging people to let their contracts know urgently as soon as they have a positive test. I'm sure many people are doing this anyway (I know my son's workplace is) but why isn't the government encouraging it, as the first line of defence? Contact tracers could be the back up.

Or am I misunderstanding something?

Littlebelina · 11/06/2020 20:01

@alreadytaken

No idea how contact tracing works, think there is a thread by tracers somewhere though.

England hospital admissions up but Scotland either missing data or none for days now and Wales figures dropped nicely today.

Scotland's figures haven't been included in the daily figures before as far as I'm aware. It was previously just England and widened to include wales/NI last week. I don't know if they are being added retrospectively to the graphs as data is made available as there is data for Scotland but as you say not for a while.

Yes admissions are up slightly on what was reported yesterday (but well down on a week ago). Today's figures are for admissions on Monday and looking at the pattern on the graph there appears to be a little up kick on a Monday/Tuesday compared to a weekend. I don't know if this us partly due to more admissions into hospital in general on a monday vs a sunday. If all admissions are getting a covid test (even if it's not covid related) this could cause that pattern as it will show asymptomatic/presymptomatic folk being admitted for scheduled reasons (surgeries etc). I.e covid might not be the primary reason they are there.

Littlebelina · 11/06/2020 20:03

Just to clarify that's daily figures for admissions and as for all figures, day to day is less important than the rolling average

whatsnext2 · 11/06/2020 20:05

Yeah can’t see Boris being civil libertarian being that keen on the app. He’d probably find it quite um confining himself.

A friend in Doha has to keep their phone with them at all times and is only allowed out at specific times denoted by phone, even to buy water. Failure means prison. We are lucky in our freedom.

BigChocFrenzy · 11/06/2020 20:54

"why isn't the government simply telling us all to let out close contacts know immediately if we've tested positive?"

Fireflies People won't know the passengers they sat / stood near on their public transport commute,
or the taxi driver who ferried them - and the driver won't know the passengers they took.
May not know all employees and visitors in a very large office

Lockdown will be relaxed a lot, so then more kinds of contacts will come into it too:

They won't know who was at the next table at a restaurant / pub / coffee shop / works canteen
the next seat at the hairdresser
who was in the gym class for an hour
in the row in front at the cinema / theatre

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 11/06/2020 21:01

atm in Germany, anyone must fill in a form with their name & contact details by hand,
if they sit at a table in a restaurant (not takeaway), go to the hairdresser, go anywhere their details are not known

The App code has been public for weeks, but some people will still refuse to download it - passed down tales of Nazis, or rl memories of the Stasi
So these forms may be required for months

OP posts:
oralengineer · 11/06/2020 21:56

Track and trace is theoretically easy at the moment during lockdown since you should not be spending more than 15 mins close contact with anyone other than work colleagues, family and health professionals for whom you will have contact details for. For everyone else you should be practicing 2m social distancing or if on public transport wearing a face covering so much lower risk.
As lock down is lifted but social distancing is maintained still not a problem. Once the 2m distancing is reduced then we will need the App to record contacts or like other countries businesses where social distancing is difficult or you are in an enclosed space you will be asked for your details.

Quarantino · 11/06/2020 22:26

People won't know the passengers they sat / stood near on their public transport commute

But the govt/ tracers won't know this either (here)?

Firefliess · 11/06/2020 22:37

@quarentino - exactly! From what I can gather the contract tracers rely entirely on the sick person being able to give them the names and contact details of everyone they've had contact with. They don't actually do any "tracing" - just contacting people who you could have contacted yourself. And that's bound to be slower than you doing it yourself.

So they're not going to be able to trace the person you sat next to on the train any more than you are yourself. The app could potentially do that, but it's the human tracers where all the focus has been lately. Unless they think people will do as their told better if someone official rings them up maybe?

Quarantino · 11/06/2020 22:44

Fireflies, that's why I asked on here. Thought there was something I was missing, or that I'd misunderstood the term 'share contacts'! TBF it's probably good to have people taking responsibility for actually doing it. Not everyone is a good diligent citizen like us MNers Wink

alreadytaken · 11/06/2020 22:47

"Scotland's figures haven't been included in the daily figures before as far as I'm aware. It was previously just England and widened to include wales/NI last week."

The tables accompanying the slides have figures for Scotland. Numbers were low anyway but there are none for the last few days.

Personally I'd trust a phone call from someone I knew, dont usually answer a call unless my phone recognised the number.

Firefliess · 11/06/2020 22:48

Yes it might well be sensible to have contact tracers as well, as they can answer questions about how to isolate, etc. But I'm just surprised they're not even suggesting that people contact their own contacts directly. I can see some people thinking that filling in the form is the right thing to do, and that maybe they're not supposed to contact them directly.

Mybrowneyedgal · 11/06/2020 23:20

My take on contact tracing is that by using an "independent" party to inform contacts it ensures that it is not minimised by those who tell their friends/family/colleagues that they've been exposed and it ensures that everyone exposed has access to a test and has the right to isolate while they wait for results.

Derbygerbil · 11/06/2020 23:25

The latest antibody study from Bergamo is particularly significant i believe to our understanding of Covid. Tests between late April and early June of a representative sample of the population showed 57% had antibodies.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.dw.com/en/coronavirus-tests-show-half-of-people-in-italys-bergamo-have-antibodies/a-53739727

This is very significant for a number of reasons:

A) Assuming antibodies provide protection, Bergamo was trending towards herd immunity, though given the severity of the Italian lockdown, it seems highly unlikely that it actually achieved it. Without intervention, as many will be infected in the “way down” and on the “way up” and, even with a high R, it would take a few weeks on the way down to approach herd immunity. As there wasn’t a delay of weeks between Bergamo reaching crisis point and lockdown occurring, there is very likely to be a gap between the number actually infected, and the higher number who would have been infected had the outbreak been allowed to peter out naturally. This indicates two important things:

I) the herd immunity percentage likely to be closer to 80% - possibly even higher - than the 60% figure that was mooted in the early days
ii) natural immunity that is able to fight off infection without antibody production is less prevalent than had been hoped, perhaps very low. This doesn’t mean necessarily that many people don’t have decent natural or t-cell protection that could fight off low infectious doses of Covid, but that this wouldn’t necessarily be enough to provide solid immunity alone in an uncontrolled and unmitigated outbreak with high quantities of virus circulating.

B) Bergamo is the probably only place that Covid has “ripped through“ without any intervention. For the poor people of Bergamo, they have provided probably the only case study of the effects of Covid spread across a pristine population without any intervention (whether imposed or population-led) until the majority had been infected. It is therefore the only place where a reliable like-with-like IFR/CFR comparison with flu can be made. In all other places, interventions occurred before, generally well before, this point, having a significant impact on the infection’s trajectory.

A similar study was done with the result published in late April.... Given the time taken to do the study, improved test reliability, and the time for antibodies to appear, it’s not surprising that there’s been a leap from the 35% figure back then.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.euronews.com/amp/2020/04/28/coronavirus-more-than-a-third-of-people-in-italy-s-covid-19-epicentre-estimated-to-have-ha

This paper published that 6,000 of Bergamo’s 1.1m had died with Covid at that point. I’ve read that Italy’s Covid death toll could be significantly understated (Ie 6,000 could be too low) but I won’t get into that here and now. Although I couldn’t find any more recent data for Bergamo, Italy’s reported deaths have increased from 27,000 to 34,000 since the date of that article, an increase of
26%. Taking the conservative assumption that deaths in Bergamo would have risen by half this amount (as it was the start of the epidemic in Italy and therefore would have been ahead of the death curve), I’ve estimated Bergamo’s Covid deaths at 6,800... This is 0.62% of the population and would
be the low bound figure for IFR/CFR (assuming they are the same for the purposes of this), with this rising to 0.87% if 80% infections are required for herd immunity.

Apply that to the UK, and you get 582,000 deaths in a no intervention scenario... Round down a bit to take account for Italy having a slightly higher age profile than the UK, and, his personal hypocrisy aside, Prof. Ferguson’s 510,000 estimated reasonable worst case scenario looks pretty good and has stood the test of time!

TabbyMumz · 12/06/2020 08:20

Is there anywhere we can look to see the daily positive tests going down? I know they show it very quickly on the daily briefings, but where can I go to see it over the last few weeks?

ShootsFruitAndLeaves · 12/06/2020 08:35

www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/bulletins/gdpmonthlyestimateuk/april2020

GDP shrunk by 20.4% on a monthly basis in April. 25% considering March as well.

May not yet counted.

There were all-time record falls in GDP for all of manufacturing, construction, services, and production.

Car sales and repair fell by 41.6% as people didn't buy new cars as they normally would.

StrawberryJam200 · 12/06/2020 09:02

Radio 4 Today prog, 2 interesting scientists from St Andrews interviewed.

1 How does the virus tend to spread? Often via "super spreaders" can infect up to 20 people. They often (always?) have mild symptoms, not severe, not asymptomatic.

2 Psychologist (I think), re all the easings/relaxations: his closing words were
"Relax in haste, repent at leisure".

wintertravel1980 · 12/06/2020 10:08

HI Derbygerbil

I have also looked at Bergamo study and run similar calculations but two of my inputs were different:

  1. Bergamo COVID deaths - the 6,000 number quoted in the Euronews article appears to represent excess deaths rather than COVID related cases. The official COVID number seems to be closer to 3,000-3,500:

www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.15.20067074v3.full.pdf

(page 9)

It can be argued that many COVID deaths were not captured by official stats which is almost certainly true but, on the other hand, the Bergamo health system stopped dealing with anything other than COVID for several weeks so I imagine there was also a spike in excess deaths from cancer, cardiovascular diseases and other medical conditions.

  1. Average population age - Bergamo appears to be 5 years older than the UK (45 vs 40). The difference is statistically significant. The risk of death from COVID doubles every 7 years so one would expect UK death numbers to be closer to 60% of the numbers for Bergamo.

Given these two factors, Imperial estimate of 500,000 deaths (based on 0.9% IFR for the UK with the median age of 40) appears conservative .

Most of the recent papers I have seen estimate COVID IFR to be closer to 0.5%. CDC seems to quote 0.4%:

science.slashdot.org/story/20/05/27/0317209/the-cdc-says-its-new-best-estimate-is-that-04-percent-of-people-with-symptoms-and-covid-19-will-die

Of course, there are scientists who still disagree with this but Bergamo numbers do not necessarily support their case.

Eyewhisker · 12/06/2020 10:10

The latest ONS survey is out. Out of over 19,000 people tested in the community, 11 individuals in 8 households tested positive. They use this to estimate that 0.06% of the population or ~33,000 people have the virus, but the error range is very large.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/bulletins/coronaviruscovid19infectionsurveypilot/latest

wintertravel1980 · 12/06/2020 10:15

Thank you, Eyewhisker, I was really interested in seeing this week's report.

Looks like the 19,000 sample is no longer sufficient. Cases keep going down (which is good news) but it also means ONS will need to expand their testing to get a meaningful picture in future weeks.

MarshaBradyo · 12/06/2020 10:17

How does the virus tend to spread? Often via "super spreaders" can infect up to 20 people. They often (always?) have mild symptoms, not severe, not asymptomatic.

Yes I found that interesting Strawberry

They also said most likely due to where person was, indoor crowded place will be super spreader. So if you are mildly ill but went to a concert or on a bus you’d be the person to spread.

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