What's going on with Whittey?

[Barbie222]

England's chief medical officer refused to lower the thread level on the Nando's chart and we are stuck "transitioning" down from phase 4 to phase 3.

Charts showing alert levels disappeared from daily briefing?

Are we still following any science?
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jun/02/chris-whitty-vetoed-lowering-of-coronavirus-alert-level

[SophieB100]

Starmer requesting more meetings with Whitty:
www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/02/keir-starmer-warns-pm-get-a-grip-or-risk-second-wave-of-coronavirus

It was all four scientists who wanted the R number to remain at 4:

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jun/02/chris-whitty-vetoed-lowering-of-coronavirus-alert-level

[Flippetydip]

@FrodoTheDodo - THANK YOU, I was beginning to question myself over my understanding of what eugenics was! I always thought it was to do with "breeding out" rather than "involuntary euthanasia" - which I'm assuming this is what people are actually trying to refer to - or is involuntary euthanasia actually just murder? - Meh, it's all semantics.

Nonetheless, we cannot keep society and the economy locked down forever to protect the few - the few must keep themselves locked down whilst the rest of us try and resurrect an economy which will allow them to be protected and cared for.

[petermaysawthefuture]

It was all four scientists who wanted the R number to remain at 4:
Alert level not R number @SophieB100

[Sostenueto]

Nope no longer following advice of scientists since.....guess!.......... That's right Cummings! The easing of lockdown was both political and economic. It was a bone thrown to the baying masses to divert away from Cummings. ( Political) and this government needs to kickstart economy cos they are running out of money to pay furloughed workers in order to prop up their Tory voters businesses. No matter that the lower paid have to endure unsafe conditions in returning to work and will probably drop like flies in the impending second wave cos the ones earning over 25 grand are safely tucked away working from home. Also they must earn as much money as possible between now and Xmas before a no deal Brexit in December ( economic).
And finally this is an exit from lockdown that had not been planned at all. Track and trace is not up and running. Figures are being massaged or not appearing and the divide between North and south as regards infection and death rates from Covid widening. The poor bame deprived people in this country are still dying. Still dying in carehomes but hey the Tory party want flights started again so they can go on holiday without quarantine put in place ( backbench revolt taking place thus very moment) and really finally the farce of parliamentary voting where shielded, or pregnant, or older MPs are not allowed to vote electronically because they can't attend Parliament because of Covid. And they call this democracy! Pfffft!

[Sostenueto]

And please note no scientists now attending at daily press conferences. This government must not be undermined by the truth speaking scientists. And as far as staying in lockdown for the vunerable while everyone gets on with life ( and spreading more Covid everywhere which means those shielding never ever leading any semblence of a normal life again for years) is a selfish, thoughtless ridiculous, false economic idea.

[Flippetydip]

@Sostenueto - seriously, who do you think pays for the NHS and who do you think is paying for furloughing? Where do you think the money is coming from?

It makes me laugh (well would do if it weren't so desperate) to see these quotes about "Tory voters businesses" (sic). Who do you think is paying for everything? Who? There really really isn't a magic money tree. To enable us to support the unemployed, the sick, the vulnerable, education, healthcare etc etc etc ad infinitum, PEOPLE HAVE TO WORK AND PAY TAXES.

[Sostenueto]

:17Flippetydip The money came from 10 years of Tory austerity. The reason the NHS coped was because 25000 people were discharged from hospital without Covid tests into carehomes ( figures out today) because they were overun with Covid patients and needed the space to treat them and it was imperitivr that this government made sure NHS coped because if they didn't people would realise just how much yhengs had been starved of funding in the past 10 years. And the ones who will be paying the most for all the furloughed workers and everything else will be the young and the most poorly paid workers for at least the next 10 years. And here's an example for you of big businesses taking the Mick out if furloughed workers....announced today...

BA intend to sack 45,000 workers then take on 30,000 at 60-79% wage drop and slashing of workers rights after having £35 million in April alone from the government for furloughing it's workforce. Also for your information out of the top 20 billionaires in this country 15 have furloughed their workers using the government scheme even though they could afford to pay workers themselves. Think any of those billionaires are labour supporters?
The people who will pay for all of this will always be the less well off.

[Sostenueto]

P.S there will be 3 million unemployed by Xmas and then we have a no deal Brexit and Nissan will pull out of GB if we do not get tariff free trade with EU ( on news today) another 25,000 jobs gone.

[Sostenueto]

People have to get back to work when it is safe to do so and not before. Otherwise false economy if you have to keep closing parts of the country down because of spikes. Track and trace is not operational till end of June and government cannot even give you a figure on the Isle if Wight app tested out ( Dominic Cummings friends company app) even a month down the line. Lie upon lie by this government. Death after death .

[VenusTiger]

@effingterrified before they kill all the old and sick, as per their plan their plan

You could be talking about ANYONE and I'd still think the same - just disgusting allegations! What a hateful attitude - opinion or not, you're suggesting they want to kill - you need help.

[ssd]

[quote VenusTiger]**@effingterrified* before they kill all the old and sick, as per their plan* their plan

You could be talking about ANYONE and I'd still think the same - just disgusting allegations! What a hateful attitude - opinion or not, you're suggesting they want to kill - you need help.[/quote]
You need help, what a joke

When did telling the truth become a medical condition?

[adelaya]

DC and JH campaigned for herd immunity (worked so well for Sweden) add in operation last gasp and it's not far from the mark @VenusTiger and that's without DC wanting to let old people die.

[SecretSpAD]

They are all civil servants and so have a responsibility to advice the govt of the best course of action but unfortunately cannot make the govt take that course of action.

Most govts - both Tory and labour - had some level of respect for the civil servants as we are experts in our fields, more so than their ministers. We also have the organisational history available to us and so can tell a minister what doesn't work as much as what does work.

In Chris Whitty we have a very experienced and knowledgeable epidemiologist. He has devoted his life to studying pandemics. Boris was so lucky that he got this job just before the pandemic hit.

It did seem, in the early days, that the govt were listening to the scientists, but along came the dominic Cummings shit show and the need to throw the plebs some scraps to distract and deflect and so the science got forgotten and the scientists jettisoned.

I highly doubt there will a book deal or celeb performances. Civil servants don't do that.

[VenusTiger]

@ssd @twinnywinny14

This article is v. interesting re: excess deaths...

BMJ: "Only a third of the excess deaths seen in the community in England and Wales can be explained by Covid-19."

www.rt.com/op-ed/490006-death-certificates-covid-19-do-not-trust/

[effingterrified]

VenusTiger, Dominic Cummings has admitted to being a eugenicist, as has Johnson. Another Spad brought in by Cummings got sacked not long ago after it came out that he was heavily into eugenics.

I don't know why you are so in denial about something everyone knows.

Yes, it is horrible, but don't blame the messenger.

Your anger should be directed at a government that is happy for its old and sick to die, and is responsible for the unnecessary deaths of 60,000 do far.

Let's not forget that Thailand has a bigger population than the UK, got the disease sooner than us, with less notice, and has had only 57 deaths.

Those 60,000 deaths in the UK were not inevitable. They were the result of deliberate political choices made by our government.

We should all be angry about this.

[B1rdbra1n]

I look forward to reading Chris whitty's book🙂

[FrodoTheDodo]

"Eugenics is the study of how to arrange reproduction within a human population to increase the occurrence of heritable characteristics regarded as desirable."

It's selective breeding over generations to improve 'genetic stock' of a population. It's nothing to do with letting the elderly die. That's a completely different thing.

[VenusTiger]

@effingterrified you've completely misrepresented what I was saying. Again, making allegations such as you have is downright disgusting. No-one else on this thread has suggested that the government planned to kill anyone, and premeditated as you have also suggested - you've used the term to kill - I'm not angry in the slightest, I'm disturbed by the hatred and bile. If anyone said what you have done about anyone else, they'd be in deep shit.

[VenusTiger]

@effingterrified look at the article - this is amongst many experiences families have been trying to get out via. SM (as news won't interview them). Also, I take it you're not aware of the studies China released in April, regarding the 30+ strains of the virus, the most deadly ones being in Western Europe and Washington state USA.

[effingterrified]

Like I said, I wonder why you reserve your anger for the people reporting on the 60,000 deaths caused by this government's inaction, but are apparently yourself fine with that inaction.

I I don't know what word other than 'kill' you would like me to use, for government policies like sending sick patients from hospitals into care homes which the government also had chosen not to supply with PPE.

Would you prefer 'murder'?

[Sostenueto]

Right the reason so many have died ( and continue to die) in carehomes and the community is the following.
A) for a long time social care has been on crisis before Covid arrived on our shores. Bed blocking because adequate care was not available in the community or in carehomes. This has been going on for along time because over the last 10 years money being put into social care has been almost halved by Tory cuts.
2) when Covid arrived there would be no way that yhengs could cope with the expected number of cases of this terrible disease without having to cut down the number of patients in hospital beds. So, the directive from thus government sent to carehomes and the NHS was to take as many from hospital pronto. These people were not tested for covid as there were not enough tests available and because bed shortages were so critical many arrived in carehomes and their own homes already infected from hospital with Covid.
3) the Nightingale hospitals had not been built and 111 were told to divert as many as possible from hospital admittances because it was imperative that the NHS did not get overwhelmed hence all operations etc stopped the huge deathrate because you had to be literally blue before you could get admitted to hospital because of lack of beds Ventilators staff etc. Why must the NHS not get overwhelmed? Because people would see just how underfunded the NHS has been over the last 10 years and how starved it was of vital equipment, resources and ppe due to these cuts inflicted by the Tory austerity measures.
4) it was as much a political decision as a national emergency for the government to make sure that measures were put in to save the NHS. All the above instigated by the government, including threatening letters sent to the government about withdrawing funding if they did not take patients and forcing all in carehomes to sign a DNR ( which is absolutely awful) so those in carehomes would not be took into hospital All of it put in place to save the NHS. So many deaths due to the Tories. There will be inquiries after all this and BORIS will have to face up to it.
5) in March because the government did not put quarantine measures in to those arriving in this country unlike all other countries who shut their borders around 10,000 people arrived in this country with Covid from countries ride with it notably Spain. There have been repeated calls for the government to publish SAGES advice on not quarantining these people. So far up and including today this has not materialised.
The list can go on and on but the bottom line is that no matter how much the government tries to blame the scientists and even you Joe public ( which they will do when second wave happens by saying you did not follow our guidance which is deliberately vague and confusing) sensible people will see who really us to blame. The economy has always come first. When Cummings was asked at a dinner on the 13 the March what the governments strategy was on Covid he said ' the economy, and if a few old people die so be it'.

[Sostenueto]

Sorry for typos I have distonia and I can't be bothered to correct all but you all get the gist.

[Sostenueto]

In this coming second wave the minimum wage earners will be the ones at greatest risk not the ones working from home.
The world is changing more people working from home, shopping on line so no need for our high streets. Everything being done via zoom and Skype even reading papers on line. Cash becoming less available as cash machines dwindle, the age of plastic aided by this crisis has arrived. Those with manual, low skilled are not needed so much. Is this another vision of Cummings? Get rid of the old and the low skilled?

[lucieee]

@twinnywinny14 excellent idea!