Cummings apologists

[runrunrunrunt]

If it was okay for him to travel for childcare then why were people fined for travelling to get childcare?

@IWantT0BreakFree
"you think that everyone exists in their own little bubble and none of us are influenced in any way?"
I did not say we are not influenced in any way. I said I can't even remember any slogans regarding Brexit and I voted how I did based on my own thought processes, as I'm sure many others did. We aren't all puppets of political party activists.

FFS, what is it about some MNers, that they consider so many things to be either mutually exclusive or at one end of the spectrum or the other? Not everything is black and white and those who think it is are the ones who still need to develop their critical thinking.

"You don't think we are influenced by advertising, media, religion, public figures, celebrities etc? You don't think that cultural norms are shaped by these factors? How do you explain different cultural norms in different countries?"
Sure we are all influenced to a certain degree by many things (such as some young people voting the same way as their parents because they've been indoctrinated until they develop and discern their own opinions as they grow). However, most of us develop critical thinking abilities as we grow and form our own opinions.

If we all were influenced to a great degree by the things you state then we'd all be towing the line with government guidelines on Covid, everything advertised on TV and online would be immediately sell out and there would be a predominance of churchgoers and christian worshippers in the UK. This isn't the case because most of us have developed critical thinking. Celebrity clothing may sell out immediately (because the people who follow celebrities and buy it are usually young and shallow undeveloped.

"You can't seriously believe any of what you've written. It's just complete nonsense."
What I have written isn't complete nonsense at all. You have misinterpreted what I have said, as pointed out at the top of my response.

Driving to Durham wasn't essential, it was his preferred choice.

Yes, it was his 'preferred choice'! I think this needs to go on a billboard or something. Worrying that the leaders of our country can't tell the difference between essential and preferred choice - except we all know that actually they can, they all know Cummings was in the wrong. Which begs the question: why the fuck are they defending him in this way? He must have each of them clamped so tightly by the bollocks, it's scary really!

@Trevsadick
Explain the "lots" of options he had.

"The same options every 2 parent household has had when they, pitentially have covid. The same options 2 parenta families have when they are having their lives made miserable by nightmare neighbours."

"More choices than single parents have in those situations."
You sound pretty upset so I presume you are having a hard time of things. I'm sorry about that but we will hopefully have some easing soon. Yes, single parents do have a much more difficult time of it in these circumstances.

However, I was just asking about the "lots" of options that DC and his wife had. How many options do you mean by "lots" and what were they?

Well on that Friday evening they had the following options:

-Wait to see if Dominic himself even got poorly, he wasn't ill at the time he drove, therefore the safeguarding of his child wasn't an issue. And even if he did get ill, see if the wife was feeling better. Yes, this is the most risky option, but is exactly what DH and I had to do when we got ill, because we didn't realise there was another option!

• See if there was anyone, anyone at all, out of everyone they knew in London, who might be willing to help them out with childcare. They may have even known people who had already had it by then and may have been able to help out in the event that it was needed. The fact that they apparently didn't even bother asking anyone nearby if they could help in such 'exceptional circumstances' says a lot.

-Make arrangements for the niece to travel down to London in the event that it was needed.

So there's 3 options right there.

Have you mixed me up with someone else? I haven't said anything abut what is allowed or not allowed on a thread.

Yes you did. You told me my comment was irrelevant.

You sound pretty upset so I presume you are having a hard time of things. I'm sorry about that but we will hopefully have some easing soon. Yes, single parents do have a much more difficult time of it in these circumstances.

Are you always like this? Can't argue your point so try and shut people down.

I am not upset. I am not even having that hard a time of it. I have been extremely lucky during this period. The kids are good my job is good.

Saying 'oh you sound sad, I hope things get better....bless' is condensending and shows that you dont really have a point to defend. Its a very poor debating technique. You sound like David Cameron and his 'calm down dear'.

As a senior leader of my company, I have worked hard to make sure people had jobs to come back to. I made decisions everyday that impected our employees physical and emotional health as well as securing their financial future.

I dont think the rules don't apply to me, because I was part of a team that made big decisions for the good of a whole group of people. Its pure arrogance to say 'I am too important to stick to the same rules'.

However, I was just asking about the "lots" of options that DC and his wife had. How many options do you mean by "lots" and what were they?

So what options did Boris and DC, expect other families in the same (or worse) situation to use? The message was simple. Stay home.

What options were available for other families? Thats what DC should have done. If it was good enough for all other families it was good enough for them.

*@JoeExoticsEyebrowRing *
Well on that Friday evening they had the following options:

-Wait to see if Dominic himself even got poorly, he wasn't ill at the time he drove, therefore the safeguarding of his child wasn't an issue. And even if he did get ill, see if the wife was feeling better. Yes, this is the most risky option, but is exactly what DH and I had to do when we got ill, because we didn't realise there was another option!
Yes, that was an option and I think it is one a lot of people would have taken but I do think the fact that Boris Johnson had just been tested positive and was self-isolating and Matt Hancock, Chris Whitty and DC's uncle amongst others around him must have had a big impact on what he did. I do think that if I was lucky enough that my father had an estate where I could self-isolate in a self-contained property, I would have done the same as DC though.
I wonder how many people haven't really considered what they would do if they did become gravely ill.

- See if there was anyone, anyone at all, out of everyone they knew in London, who might be willing to help them out with childcare. They may have even known people who had already had it by then and may have been able to help out in the event that it was needed. The fact that they apparently didn't even bother asking anyone nearby if they could help in such 'exceptional circumstances' says a lot.
I wouldn't have asked others either. I would not want to put anyone at risk of a deadly disease when I could, within the guidelines, go elsewhere and, if it became necessary, have someone look after my child who was in a low risk category.

-Make arrangements for the niece to travel down to London in the event that it was needed.
Do we know whether the niece is a driver? Isn't she only 17? She may not drive at all or, if she does, may not drive long distances at that age.

So there's 3 options right there.

@Trevsadick

Me: "Have you mixed me up with someone else? I haven't said anything abut what is allowed or not allowed on a thread."

You: "Yes you did. You told me my comment was irrelevant."
Saying your point isn't relevant to the discussion is not telling you what is allowed or not on a thread. I was just saying the issue you raised was not relevant because it was not comparable and, although I expressed that it wasn't right for your auntie to be treated like that, I still don't think you can relate it to the DC situation. It's not the same.

"Its very relevant to the conversation the police were acting within the ketter of the law left vulnerable old thinking they cant reach out for support because of DC slogans, and and communication. The police were acting within the givernements guidelines."
I think you missed my point on the situation not being relevant to the DC situation. People are saying DC's reasons are arguable. Some are arguing it is provided for in the guidelines while others are categoric it isn't allowed. (In truth the guidelines do contain contradictory information and they could be better).

The situation with your auntie is very clear. She had a fall so was vulnerable. The police clearly DID NOT acting appropriately because the Government guidelines do allow you to leave your home to provide care to someone vulnerable. The Govt have made that very clear. The police were wrong in pulling them up about that. I would, in those circumstances, speak to them about it to see if they are prepared to speak to your upset auntie and put that situation right.

Me: "You sound pretty upset so I presume you are having a hard time of things. I'm sorry about that but we will hopefully have some easing soon. Yes, single parents do have a much more difficult time of it in these circumstances."

You: "Are you always like this? Can't argue your point so try and shut people down.

I am not upset. I am not even having that hard a time of it. I have been extremely lucky during this period. The kids are good my job is good.

Saying 'oh you sound sad, I hope things get better....bless' is condensending and shows that you dont really have a point to defend. Its a very poor debating technique. You sound like David Cameron and his 'calm down dear'."
I didn't say "oh you sound sad, I hope things get better....bless". Those are your words, not mine.

I'm very sorry. I did not mean to come across as condescending. I was not trying to shut you down at all. I thought you came across as upset and was genuinely extending sympathy because single parents obviously are generally having a much harder time of things than where there are two parents in a household. Some words don't come over very well when in text and this is clearly one of those occasions.

I am not moving on from this. If they are so openly lying about thing that are verifiable (trip to Durham, to Bernard Castle, the blog edit, the eye sight!), what else are they doing behind the closed doors?
I have lost my trust completely. He must go.

Telling someone their point isn't relevant, is telling them this isnt the place for it. Thats telling them what they can or can't post.

It is relevant, because of how people have felt trying to get support during lockdown. The police were acting on government guidence. If you can not connect peoples personal situations to what DC has done and understand why people are bothered theres not much people can say. My aunties situation is an example about how people have been made to feel they are acting illegally and doing something wrong. Whilst the architect of these rules was just doing what he wanted anyway. If he thought the rules were so important, it was worth the police time, he should have stuck to them.

I do not require your assistance on how to complain about the police nor your advice.

I know you didn't say those exact words. I quoted your post above what I said. Thats how your post comes across.

Your posts are condensending. You are telling people they are upset, telling them they should let it go, arguing that points the government made weeks ago arent relevant (IE taking non essential car journeys and leaving the house with Covid symptoms). Non of his travel was essential. It was preferable him.

Why are you presuming I am a single parent?

I was a single parent and I loved it. I would be quite happy to be one again. My kids are older, so it wouldn't make it harder. Even now.

That doesnt mean I can't understand that the government laid down these guidelines that made life difficult and near impossible for some families. Single parents will have found it even harder than a 2 parent family. DC and his wife are in a great position. Lots of Money and 2 parents there, where they live. They do know people in London. Do you really believe, no one (even through his work) could not have brought them supplies?

The government just expected households to just get on with it and stick to the rules. The options available to every family, who got sick and stuck to the rules were available to DC. If DC and his wife didn't have other options, how have other families coped? Did the government not worry about that? Funny how 'just get on with it and get a friends/ family/ local charity to deliver food' isnt ok for DC, but is for everyone else.

Do we know whether the niece is a driver? Isn't she only 17? She may not drive at all or, if she does, may not drive long distances at that age.

Train? Coach? Some were still running at that time weren't they? She didn't have to drive.

I wonder how many people haven't really considered what they would do if they did become gravely ill.

No, I didn't. Partly because I knew that the chances of both me and DH becoming that ill at the same time they we couldn't have safely looked after our kids were very small, and partly because I knew using other people for childcare wasn't really an option anyway, so it didn't really cross my mind!

Given that Dominic Cummings is the PMs chief adviser, it's astonishing that he seems to lack the basic initiative to think of a solution that doesn't involve breaking lockdown. As PPs have said, he had the exact same options as every other fucking mug parent infected with Covid, and we all managed not to break the rules.

Matt Hancock said he did have a childcare arrangement - I'm wondering who did he use?!

I wouldn't have asked others either. I would not want to put anyone at risk of a deadly disease when I could, within the guidelines, go elsewhere

It wasn't within the guidelines. The guidelines were Stay. At. Home.

As PPs have said, he had the exact same options as every other fucking mug parent infected with Covid, and we all managed

Yeah, this is the crux of it. We were in the same position (I was too). But we didn't see ourselves as "exceptional circumstances".

So what are you Cummings defenders saying then?

That we, who found a way, aren't as "exceptional" as Cummings?

That our circumstances, somehow, weren't as bad?

Or that we were to thick to work out what were obviously instructions apparant to those who made them?

What are you insinuating?

That since it should be self-evident that Cummings acted with "integrity" and as any "caring father" should, that we must conclude we lack such integrity and weren't caring enough?

@TossaCointoYerWitcher I think that’s what pisses me off the most about this. That we’re being asked to accept that Cummings is a being with superior powers of reasoning because he thought “shit, I might be really ill here, I’d better call my mum”. The fact is that millions of us who are lucky enough to have that kind of family do that all the time in normal times. But we were specifically told NOT to do it at this time. Grrrr.

In response the government uses public monies to fund propaganda to reverse the anger of the great unwashed. They certainly know their people.

Well they aren't rewriting the rules.

They did state exceptional circumstance and risk to life.

It's that they think we are all stupid enough to believe that he travelled to self isolate in case both parents got Covid and in case the needed childcare is

"An exceptional circumstance"

In the midst of a pandemic!

He was in the same situation as everyone. It wasn't exceptional.

And Boris yesterday wouldn't say other families couldn't do this or actually either say they could either.

They've lost their own credibility. No ones done if for them. They did it to themselves.

And if they honestly believe hand on heart that what he did was right why deny a public enquiry? Surely they realise if people independent rather than just Johnson and Cummings themselves defending his actions could go a long way to gaining but public trust - which eight now matters more than anything else.

The government plan to have regional lockdowns, but how will the even work if people in a locked down area can cite Cummings as a paragon of parenting?
"We're just leaving the area to access childcare in case we get ill"
Cummings has undermined the whole government strategy, which for a strategist is quite a large failing!

Well they aren't rewriting the rules.

I think they are.....guidance quoted was released on 8th. Cummings travelled on 1st.

DC himself said that his wife lied about their whereabouts in the article so that the press wouldn't find out that they'd done the flit to Durham. He felt justified because once it was discovered his family started getting harrassed.

If he had any forecasting abilities he should have realised that in this day and age, and having made so many enemies the likelihood of keeping his trip undiscovered were minimal.

Thinking about how scenarios will play out to the media/voters is a key part of his role yet his justifications were very poorly thought out when things like the dates of his family's birthdays were in the public domain, they had had to use local health services and he knew that he had been spotted.

One niece was 17, the other was 20 according to DC's own account. A 20 yr old should be more than capable of getting to London on their own under the caring for others exception and would have been the least risky option all round.

I thought he travelled up the evening of the 27th?

After he'd ran home because MW vomited. And then returned to work because it wasn't Covid symptoms. Then realised most of his close cabinet had it and his nieces just happened to ring him that day and offer childcare. So deciding to leave for Durham. Packing his suitcase including his sons Drs kit. And driving to Durham.
All before midnight.

Then he woke on 28th March quite unwell Covid.

I'm sure sure we ever got to the bottom of MW having it or not?

@inmysparetime I agree. PR disaster. It will be interesting to discover in due course, as we will, just why he is so integral to the big plan.

itsgettingweird dc said that his wife fell ill on 27th March but was getting better by 29/30th so she could look after the child and went with him to hospital on 2nd April.

So either she had a very mild version or another bug. Certainly nothing exceptional.

There is nothing exceptional about their circumstance.

They both risked getting Covid. They had a child.

Along with a huge number of people who told told they MUST stay at home.

It's a pandemic or a highly transmissible virus. It would have likely been more exceptional if Cummings didn't get it considering his close cabinet members did and they both didn't get it if one of them did.

It's irrelevant whether MW did or didn't have corona (except the point he returned to work but he said he had no reason to believe she had it then) it's almost irrelevant if his symptoms were or were not corona.

The point is that if anyone was symptomatic they isolated for 7 days in case to slow transmission.
No one travelled anywhere else unless in an exceptional circumstance and where there was an extreme risk to life.

Just having or possibly likely to have Covid is not exceptional.
Possibly needing childcare is not exceptional.

And maybe needing childcare is not an extreme risk to life.

They've added so much detail to take away from the actual general points here. And when it's stripped back he was in no different circumstance than anyone else worldwide.

It's amazing how a supposed genius has managed to get himself into this situation through a combination of arrogance and ineptitude. This is doing huge damage to the Government.