I'm finding the reaction to covid utterly bizarre

[TheDailyCarbuncle]

If anyone had told me that healthy, fit people would willingly put their livelihoods at risk and deny their children an education for months on end, that they would send the country into recession putting healthcare, education and public services at risk for years and years to come to avoid getting a disease that had a very very small chance of killing them I wouldn't have believed it. If you'd said people would be afraid to talk to their healthy siblings I wouldn't have believed it.

I had measles in the 1980s as small child - the vaccination programme where I lived was slow to get off the ground - and it nearly killed me. In 1980 2.6 million people worldwide died of measles, a very large proportion of them children. No one ever considered a lockdown, it was never even suggested.

I think all the analysis of this situation in the coming years won't be about the pandemic, but about the contagion of fear that made people so terrified of something that wasn't a real threat to them that they created huge, long-lasting, in some cases devastating problems for themselves, problems that were nothing to do with their virus and everything to do with their reaction to the virus.

stretchedmarks

I haven't come across any disparity of attitude like you describe. Here people are very grateful for all of those who are working in really challenging conditions at this time - that includes retail staff, HSE / hospital staff, delivery people, postal workers, but also grateful to teachers for doing what they can to support student learning at home, I've had people being really appreciative of work I have done (in a completely non-frontline role!) but adapting what I normally do to make something work, working in different ways and patterns to usual to help get something done.

It's a real shame that you've come across that level of division.

It is a misnomer to say there is no lockdown in Sweden. There is no official lockdown but there is a voluntary lockdown with public transport usage dropping, people working from home and elderly care homes not accepting visitors. Mass gatherings of more than 50 have been banned so don't claim they are going around living as normal. Also 26 people died in 1980 in the UK of measles because there was a vaccination and many had been vaccinated so completely different to this pandemic. Since then there has never been any more than 16 deaths in 1 year and usually no more than 1 or 2. You are comparing apples and oranges.

Measles is not the same ....before measles vaccine was introduced in the 1960s, few people made it to adulthood without having contracted the disease. Having measles confers lifelong immunity.
So outbreaks affected children yes and you could have localized control/stop children going to school for few weeks if an outbreak. The adults would already likely be immune.

Covid is new.
No vaccine.
No immunity.
Global travel has spread it.

Stretchedmarks, I am and I believe many others too v grateful for the various workers in different sectors you have listed are doing. They have kept things going and have enabled the lockdown to happen and bring down the numbers. To get these numbers down we needed many to be in lockdown until better systems are in place such as testing tracing and isolating.

We need to be in lockdown for a little longer to not waste what lockdown has achieved. However, I am very aware that certain groups of workers are taking a heavy load and greater risk to achieve this.

Totally agree OP.

OP thank you for this.

I've been saying it on here for weeks and mostly get shot down by the same posters

But I'm going to keep saying it and I'm glad you started this thread. I actually had a chat with a 20 something lad today who admitted he had been completely influenced by what he saw on TV and then decided to look at some stats instead. He said he was initially terrified and then calmed down.

I asked him why he looked at the stats later and he said he'd been fooled initially into thinking it was too complicated for him to understand. We stood 2 metres apart and had a good chat. I hope that when this is over, enough people will see it for the mass hysteria it is and that will be our protection against further lockdown.

But it is scary. I hope that MN is not reflective of real life. I saw many many people out and about today, fewer wearing masks than at the start of all this. Fingers crossed for sanity.

Did he look at the same stats you did when you claimed 50k deaths to flu in 2018?

True

So many people, with so little risk running scared. Only the very vulnerable are really at risk and watching a programme a few nights back a scientist said even then the risk is small.

Strange isn't it.

The lockdown is not necessarily aimed at just delaying infection, if a vaccine or effective drug therapy is found within a couple of years then controlling the speed of infection could actually prevent many people from catching or dying from covid. I am not suggesting we'd be locked down for that time, but obviously given how bad our outbreak was allowed to become, lockdown was the only measure available to us to get infection down to a level that could even possibly be semi 'managed' over the medium term.

Also the lockdown is not about individual risk, none of the measures are. If individual risk remained the same, but the susceptible population was lower and/or we wouldn't be facing exponential growth, then the measures wouldn't have been taken. The risk is on a societal level, given the numbers who would be infected and would be sick within a certain timeframe. The social and economic collapse caused by exponential growth is what then poses risk to every individual.

It is a misnomer to say there is no lockdown in Sweden. There is no official lockdown but there is a voluntary lockdown
It didn't impose lockdown but people voluntarily followed the guidance to stay at home if they could.Mobility rates were almost the same as neighbouring countries that did have lockdown.
There was a fascinating article in The New York Times about this. Sweden's death rate is almost 30% higher than usual. It's death toll is much higher than its neighbouring Scandinavian countries.

@Hunnybears

Absolutely not. Children are just staring their journey in life. When a child dies it’s absolutely tragic. When an 85 dies.... it’s not. It’s sad but not tragic and there I’m which lies the difference.

I cannot believe you actually wrote this!

Anyone dying unnecessarily, in a way that could be prevented, is tragic.

Comparing a child's death to an elderly person's death is pointless - of course there is a desperate layer of grief that accompanies any death of a child.

But what kind of society starts ranking deaths?

As in the UK, here in Ireland, there has been story after story about people's loved ones dying alone, no-one to hold their hand or say goodbye, attempts to say goodbye over a phone or video call, and then funerals taking place without all the usual ceremonies and support from the community. This is tragic. And any society that doesn't recognise this, has lost its way.

(As a side note, I caught up with the BBC 'Hospital' special on Covid last night. I haven't watched part 2 yet. It was incredible TV. The stress and utter exhaustion of the staff was hard to watch. The poor man (88, but well, looked so much younger, completely lucid and alert) who sat all alone on oxygen in an empty ward, no family able to support him, and told (sensitively) by doctors that they couldn't do any more to help him, and if he deteriorated, did he agree to DNR , no intubation etc, was heartbreaking to watch. He was so utterly dignified about the situation - and his situation was deteriorating and calls were made to his family - but thankfully, he recovered, which was beautiful. No-one could surely watch that and think 'meh, sad but not tragic'. Absolutely it would have been tragic if he had died - his wife of 60 years didn't have a phone so he couldn't talk to her. He'd contracted Covid from a dinner party he'd held where an guest attending turned out to have been infected. He was a man fully living and loving life, and I would challenge anyone to say that at 88, if he had died it would have been just 'sad'

OP I agree.

I don’t want my children to return school, not because of Covid, because we all have to get it (vaccine is far off from being safe to use).
I’m afraid to send my children to school because of the emotional impact it will have them.
I’ve spent the majority of this lockdown ensuring the emotional happiness and safety of my dc.
That’s what’s important for children, not trying to catch up.
Unfortunately dc due to diy their gcse and alevels is where the damage is being done. I truly feel for them.

The government have got a lot to answer for..

I agree OP. I was in the supermarket looking at all these people wearing face masks, young people, all acting as though ebola is lurking on every shelf. It’s extraordinary. Their chance of contracting it is incredibly small. Everyone has lost their minds. Absolutely lost their minds. It’s disturbing to watch.

Weallhavevalidopinions

I think you might need to re-think your name.

So what you are implying is that dominic cummings was right? Shame boris and most other world leaders lack your clarity of thought and conviction i guess.

I've been saying it on here for weeks and mostly get shot down by the same posters

I know you have been saying it for weeks on here as I see your posts all the time. You are entitled to your views. I write on here frequently too banging the drum for the alternative to what you favour as I support the testing, contract tracing and isolating strategy. I don’t think people are shooting you down, there are just a fair few who disagree with your view which as said you are entitled to but people are allowed to not agree with it.

*Not all kids are the same but among my friends we all think that sending them back to school 1st June would be WORSE for their mental health.

They can't play, they can't go to their normal classroom.

My Daughter is shielded from thinking about the 'risk' side of it at home

She is mentally healthier here than in a school where they are all stressed about enforcing new rules which will be alien to her.

Think of the poor 5 year olds being in tears for being told off for hugging their friends and putting their fingers in their mouths!
*
absolutely. I am not worried about my dd getting the virus, or her passing it on to me, but I won't send her back to school for all the reasons above. It is completely unnatural and detrimental to try and force 4yr olds to socially distance. She's better off being in a bubble at home.

there's surely a middle ground. If you need to send your kids to school to be able to work or because you are unable to keep them safe and happy send them to school and no one in the house is vulnerable do it. But if you can happily keep them at home do. Same with work if you can relatively safely work then do but not if you live with someone vulnerable. If not work from home. Unfortuately if you are older, diabetic, have certain conditions or are overweight don't go to work.

Their chance of contracting it is incredibly small

@SpokeTooSoon

Where do you get this from? What evidence is that?

From my reading, the evidence is the opposite. The virus is very easily transmitted. Look at the massive rise in infection rates, and then deaths, once Covid arrived to any country. Look at Spain and Italy, who carried on as normal until their health systems were overwhelmed, and then imposed a really strict lockdown, and still helplessly watched, for many weeks the rate of infection, and the deaths rising.

What appears to be true is that the virus is actually weak. So, excellent hand hygiene, disinfecting surfaces e.g. trolley handles in supermarkets, and so on, will kill the virus and reduce transmission.

Wearing masks is a matter for debate at the moment - there's evidence both ways.

I agree OP. I was in the supermarket looking at all these people wearing face masks, young people, all acting as though ebola is lurking on every shelf. It’s extraordinary. Their chance of contracting it is incredibly small. Everyone has lost their minds. Absolutely lost their minds. It’s disturbing to watch.

Wearing a mask protects others. Common sense tell you that if you wear a mask and everyone else does to, there will be less transmission.

Less transmission means schools go back, businesses open up, playbacks, pubs, cinema etc.

Oh and even better - the NHS continues to manage and fewer people die.

I really don't see what is disturbing about that...........

The point of lockdown was not just to keep the NHS functioning. The NHS is also a proxy there for other things. If levels of severe sickness are so high that the NHS is overwhelmed, what do you think is happening in the wider society and the economy with all the severe sickness, both covid and otherwise, going untreated, with staff in all sectors off sick?

Also, why on mumsnet is there this bizarre back and forth I haven't seen or heard anywhere else, with people saying we should abandon all measures and apparently responding to others who, they claim, are advising we all lockdown for years? I have not seen either extreme anywhere else. Nor will either extreme ever happen, so you might as well save your ( virtual) breath.

"I agree OP. I was in the supermarket looking at all these people wearing face masks, young people, all acting as though ebola is lurking on every shelf. It’s extraordinary. Their chance of contracting it is incredibly small. Everyone has lost their minds. Absolutely lost their minds. It’s disturbing to watch."

You have misunderstood something important. People are wearing masks to protect other people. Because if we all act like we have it, which we might, we won't inadvertently pass it on and push the rate of infection above 1, prolonging lockdown.

It's the selfish, thick pricks going around saying they don't need to take precautions 'because I'll be fine' that you have to watch.

I agree with you OP.

I live in South Australia and we now have no active known cases and very high levels of testing. We are being told that while restrictions are being eased there will be no normal life until a vaccine is found. People are being told not to take public transport because it’s ‘too dangerous’. The very mention of professional football is met with the outcry ‘but people are dying’ we are still at under 100 deaths for all of Australia. It’s madness.

I don’t want my children to return school, not because of Covid, because we all have to get it

No, we don’t all have to get it. Test, trace, isolate once the R number is a little lower than now which will then have a very good chance of keeping numbers low whilst scientists work on developing therapeutics or a vaccine, though latter not guaranteed.

There is still much not known about the virus but reports are coming out that some are developing what could become long term health complications. More data needs to be collected to get an idea of numbers but letting a sizeable chunk of the population be infected could yield significant numbers of people with ill health long term which will be bad for the individual, society and the economy.