For those who want schools to go back..

[pfrench]

.. tell us how you think it should work. Primary or secondary.

In your ideal world.

How would social distancing be adhered to?
How about drop off and pick up?
How would classrooms operate?
How about lunchtimes and breaktimes?
What about after school childcare provision?
What about staff who are sheidling?
What about children who are sheilding?
What about staff who have family members who are sheilding?
Should only some children go back? Who should they be and why?

So many education and school experts on here, it will be interesting to read your safe solutions.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/teachers-ppe-schools-return-coronavirus-lockdown-robert-jenrick-a4434271.html%3famp

@controversialquestion - I initially thought pupils stay in one class, but for secondary schools that just isn't practical. The pupils are all in one form group, but you have several sets in that form. Pupil A won't be in the same set as pupil B and Pupil C is in a 3rd set, so how does the science teacher set the work? Especially if they aren't normally Pupil A & B's teacher. Do they set the work to the middle and have pupils finding it both hard and easy, not to mention the experiments they would need to do in their lessons. It's highly unlikely that the science assistant will be carting a trolley full of chemicals and portable gas Bunsen burners around school.

Same for English and maths. You would have to rearrange form groups by set and it still wouldn't be perfect as there would be pupils who would be in one set for most subjects but a completely different one for 1 or 2 others.

Secondary school return needs a much bigger logistical plan than primary, where they can go in to one class and spend the days with the same staff and pupils.

*They need transition desperately.

I’m really bemused by this nonsense about Y6.

I mean, you can call it nonsense if it makes you feel superior, but that doesn't make it so. I've been talking to a lot of secondary school teachers this week who are massively concerned about current year 6s making the transition to year 7 after having been out of education for such an extended period. And that's without considering the emotional impact on them of the total lack of transition- which surely people will not need explaining form is about an awful lot more than a day of sex ed, shirt signing and chatting about secondary schools.

DS2 is year 6. I'm sure for some teachers who do it year in year out, the 'ending' activities of year 6 are just another thing, just part of the job, nothing special, happens every year... but for them it's a really big thing in their lives. They were all ramped up to do SATs and then move through all the things that mark this transition- the special assemblies, residential trip, parties, disco etc. Of course none of those things can happen now, of course it would be unreasonable to think they should happen, of course there are more important things in the world... but it's so sad to see the complete dismissal of the impact that will have on children.

Anyway, this thread is making me feel cross and sad so I think I will leave it now.

@fedup21 I read that as saying that the government will not be providing PPE for school staff and that it won't prevent re-opening.

However, they don't seem to be saying that school staff will not be allowed to wear it if sourced, which is our local authority's line.

I just wonder if we will be the only key workers specifically banned from wearing PPE, or if the LA even have that authority in the absence of a government directive.

The things people keep posting about death rates are missing the point, IMO.

If schools can't reopen without teachers getting ill, they won't stay open for very long. We saw this in the week before lockdown. Unless there is really quick testing, if we are still sticking to the 7 day self isolation rules, a cough going around a school will quickly shut it again.

For me, before schools reopen, we need really robust testing in place, and we need clear guidance on what happens if there is a case in school. This isn't necessarily about safety, it's just about having schools open as viable places that won't suddenly shut again!

To answer the questions in the OP: from a secondary PoV

How would social distancing be adhered to?

Students stay in classrooms in small groups- with desks spread out. Teachers move to students. To have enough space, obviously we'd have limited children in. Packed lunches to be eaten in classrooms. A shorter school day, with less breaks, potentially.

How about drop off and pick up?

Staggered arrival and home times- students not allowed on school premises before their arrival time. These would be geographical, due to buses, rather than age based. For us, the school entrances are a real crunch point during the morning/afternoon, so I think this would be the only way forwards.

How would classrooms operate?

Students spread out at individual desks (we do have classrooms where we could do this with say 10 students). Limited chances to get out of their seats. No sharing of equipment, which would be tough for the ones who turn up without a pen.

How about lunchtimes and breaktimes?

For secondary, I think we are better off shortening the school day and minimizing these. Either that or staggering them throughout the day, and having kids out only within small groups. Kids would have to go outside, rather than using the limited inside space available.

What about after school childcare provision?

As a secondary school, this doesn't really apply. I don't think after school clubs would be running. For primary, I could see this being possible with very limited numbers only- or a much higher staff/child ratio which will push the prices up.

What about staff who are sheidling?

Stay off, obviously, and provide work/support for children who aren't in school for whatever reason. Could also work on the gained time tasks for the year.

What about children who are sheilding?

Again, obviously they should stay off- with work being provided/supported by specific staff.

What about staff who have family members who are sheilding?

I think this is where it becomes a really tricky grey area. I don't think my school could operate if all people with a sheilding family member + vulnerable + pregnant stayed at home- even with a limited number of children who are in. It is bloody tough and will probably have to be decided on a school by school basis.

It is obviously not as easy as saying "just let them quit" especially if they teach a shortage subject. (Not that we should be saying "let them quit" anyway, but if we lost a good maths teacher we would probably struggle to replace them- and I don't just mean short term).

Should only some children go back? Who should they be and why?

For me, from a safeguarding and educational perspective, I think having all years getting some face to face time would be good. In an interim period, expanding the number of "key worker" children in school might not be a bad thing. I'd rather have one year group in each day of the week, instead of, say Y10 all the time.

If we are told we can only have some year groups in, I would actually have Y10 +7 back first because Y7 are least able to stay home alone for long periods. I reckon Y12 are managing with online learning better than other year groups. Our Y12 is quite small and classes would be easy to socially distance BUT once you have sixth formers in, you have to deal with issues like study periods etc which is an added complication.

I've not seen anyone post about the affect no SD amongst children will have on a lot of children. The children have been told they have to stay at home ans not see family but then they will be told its OK to go to school where children won't social distance. I've seen enough tik tok videos from the key workers kids to know that SD is not happening in my child's senior school. She does not want to go into an environment where SD is not observed.

Now we have testing any teacher who thinks they might have it can be presumably tested within a day or so and if they don't will know they just have a cold and can carry on working surely, so that is different from the week before lockdown.

If students can transmit this virus at the same rate as adults, then opening schools at all is idiotic.

If they can't, then opening them in a phased manner is unnecessary.

I think we need to find out which one of these is true.

FWIW, for transition, we could potentially shut the school to other students for a day or two, and have Y6 in in small groups, to at least get them used to the building and do a bit of pastoral stuff with them. I reckon you could take 5 or so children around the school in a socially distanced way if it was well planned.

We couldn't do the usual fun stuff like making slime and lighting bunsen burners and what not, but from a pastoral point of view it might be worthwhile. They could have a chat with a teacher (and maybe a volunteer older student?) which might help with dealing with worries etc, and meet key people like their head of year and the head of school and so on.

I don't think this would be possible with other students in school, though, because you'd basically need the school buildings to be otherwise empty.

I had a conversation this morning with my friend who is the head of one of our local primary schools and her DH is also a head at a school out of our borough and she says they both fully expect year 5 and 6 to start back after the May half term.

Up until now she has been very on the fence about schools returning before September but she is one of these 'super heads' who also works closely with local government so I've got no reason not to believe her.

She did say however that she doesn't expect infant children back until the Autumn term. I guess we will get more of an idea on Sunday.

I suggest, actually, that we get all the people who are completely happy sending their children in to school to take part in a study for three weeks. They can all send their children in to about 10 schools across the nation. All the people who think teachers should just get on with it like everyone else can provide childcare. In three weeks time, we will have conclusive evidence. We can view the results, and go from there.

I think the same for school as for everything else. Those not vulnerable go back, making any distancing changes that are reasonable and not too disruptive, in order to slow spread somewhat but with the priority being getting the economy and education moving again.

So for example let’s stagger school drop off/pick up, but don’t try to make 5 year olds distance, it’s impossible, and don’t make them go back very part time, that defeats much of the point of reopening.

Secondary pupils 14+ can presumably keep studying from home pretty effectively?

Those who are shielding, staff and pupils, should absolutely be supported to stay home.

Those who are not shielding but have a shielding family member they live with - tricky. In some cases there may be ways to make new living arrangements eg one parent who needs to go to work goes to live elsewhere (AirBnBs, second homes get requisitioned) so that other parent can stay with shielding child. Or shielding parent goes to stay elsewhere. But appreciate this won’t be possible in all cases.

@Xenia Testing near me is at a center only accessible by car (there are no at home tests available to us). You get an appointment usually in 1-2 days time and it is up to you to make your way there somehow. It takes about 48 hours to get results- most people who have asked for a test have got results back within 4-5 days, but out of about 10 people I know who have had a test, 2 have had an "inconclusive" result so had to get a second test. So realistically, they are off for less time but it is not the same as getting a same day test and having just a day off school.

If more people in the local area need tests, I can imagine there being longer delays (obviously I don't know if this would be the case or not)- so we could quite easily be up to the 7 days off of self isolation anyway!

Obviously if robust, quick testing was available, this would be a gamechanger. And obviously there needs to be clear guidance about what to do if someone tests positive. Do we carry on as normal? Do we shut the school? Should we do something in between?

@nellodee But what if the answer is that they transmit the virus say 50% as much as adults? That might suggest a phased reopening? It's also very likely that transmission rates are different for

She did say however that she doesn't expect infant children back until the Autumn term

I hope that is correct.

I think this is where it becomes a really tricky grey area. I don't think my school could operate if all people with a sheilding family member + vulnerable + pregnant stayed at home

I completely agree-this is the same situation as in my school. We can contact supply agencies as soon as we know schools may reopen, but who’s to say they will have enough to staff to cover all the gaps in all the schools and will the budgets even allow it? How long could schools afford to pay full time wages for vulnerable people or people living with shielded people PLUS supply to cover them?

@Fedup21 - have they been assessed or do they have any of the disabilities which would allow for additional measures to be made for that pupil?

I think there will be a lot of pupils who suddenly get put on assessment pathways for their behaviour which previously has always been managed, even if management was less than ideal. Because diagnosis would enable further support to be funded in place. I know of a pupil who gets supported in class simply because another pupil in their class gets the funding for it. This shouldn't be happening. They need and should be funded in their own right.

Alternatively, these pupils will be moved to classes where LSA's are attending so they can help manage them.

I understand the comments re what about other key workers why are teachers different etc.. But most Keyworkers are not squashed in a room with 30 little people plus TA plus INA for children that need extra support. It would be impossible to separate our children as classrooms are too small already. Teachers are actually working now, our school is open to Keyworkers children and vulnerable children. In height of pandemic we were having parents sending ill children with no regard. We have no ppe. I have kids myself who are desperately missing school (who could come in with me). But they are much safer at home at the moment. School is not a safe environment in my opinion at the moment.

Obviously if robust, quick testing was available, this would be a gamechanger. And obviously there needs to be clear guidance about what to do if someone tests positive. Do we carry on as normal? Do we shut the school? Should we do something in between?

Yeah, this is the key thing. I've got a cough at the moment, I'm 99% sure it's nothing lurg-like, just a cough. But I wouldn't be able to come in to school. So, I book a test today and get one tomorrow. Then my test results come back the next day (at best) - that's me in work on Monday if negative, but what if I'm positive? What if it's negative but I get worse next week, maybe it was a false negative? So I have another test, and I'm off work just in case, so that's another two days at least.

This isn't primarily a school issue though - productivity in work in general is going to be quite low while this testing regime gets sorted out. That might have been why Johnson said the ridiculous 200,000 tests a day by the end of the month thing yesterday in PMQs. We all know it won't happen, they're nowhere near the 100,000 tests even now.

Aaaaanyway. English lesson done, history now....

@Fedup21 - re shielding current advice is those keyworkers in the same household as a person shielding can still attend work. They just need to take sensible precautions, ie lots of handwashing, social distancing at home, not sharing the same bed, sanitising bathrooms after use etc. It's a big ask I think, but one which government organisations have told their staff they have to comply with current guidelines. So Joe Bloggs is no longer allowed to stay off work because Jenny Bloggs has condition X and is shielding. Jenny however, doesn't have to return to work yet.

Regarding the question about how many people opticians and dentists work with per day, it’s actually a question of their exposure.

A dentist is working in your mouth, near your breath. When using a drill, they generate an aerosol of respiratory droplets. An optician gets right into your face shining their light into your eye.

It’s well known that ENT consultants are at risk.

I’ve never seen teachers getting that close to kids, not saying there aren’t examples, just that it’s not a core part of their work. They don’t drill in your mouth. Dentists, despite seeing fewer people, are more exposed.

Hopefully teachers need less PPE than a dentist. However if they feel that they’d be better off behind a Perspex screen, let this be arranged.

Minsok it’s by no means ideal. In schools where setting is the norm they would have to go with one set- yes some children have vet different abilities but some schools don’t set at all and seem to manage fine, so would be ok in short term. Yes, science experiments may have to go on hold or be shown on a video instead, but again in the short term not a disaster.

School is not a safe environment in my opinion at the moment.

I feel safe at school. We've had the same children in the whole time, none of them have ever been ill - not so much as a single cough. They've not socially distanced among themselves, and while we adults have tried, we've mostly failed.

If any of them had been sent in while ill though, especially if a child of an ICU dr or nurse, then yep it would have been a different story.

Because diagnosis would enable further support to be funded in place.

Yes, definite needs, but in the particular case I’m thinking of, they are very new to the school, which brings its own problems. Diagnosis often has very little to do with additional funding either in my experience. It’s about level of need and providing enough evidence to the Statutory assessment team. It is a minefield to get funding approved at the best of times-when the schools reopen, applications with no recent evidence-will probably be extremely difficult. Our SA team have not been accepting any requests for statutory assessment requests since lockdown anyway which is another matter. The backlog when we reopen will be huge .

if they feel that they’d be better off behind a Perspex screen

Ye gads, I'm just imagining the state of the perspex screen after my class are done with it. Snot everywhere. Bork.

I’ve never seen teachers getting that close to kids

Go into a KS1 class; you will see countless examples.

I completely agree-this is the same situation as in my school. We can contact supply agencies as soon as we know schools may reopen, but who’s to say they will have enough to staff to cover all the gaps in all the schools and will the budgets even allow it? How long could schools afford to pay full time wages for vulnerable people or people living with shielded people PLUS supply to cover them?

And all the schools local to you are fighting for the same supply as well. We all know that most supply teachers have schools they won't work in/will only work in as a last resort, so they won't be distributed evenly (unless the government/LA steps in, somehow). Some schools will have almost normal staffing levels, and some will be shafted.

And you're right about it killing school budgets, as well.

Plus, tbf it is not just teaching staff- it's admin staff, non-teaching pastoral staff, TAs, Technicians etc. These are people the school can operate without for a few days at a time, so we don't normally get cover in, but if they are off longer term, we will struggle.

So, I book a test today and get one tomorrow. Then my test results come back the next day (at best) - that's me in work on Monday if negative

And that's the absolute best case scenario, as well. Around here it has been more like 3-4 days as a minimum, so it's more likely you're back in work on Tuesday and Wednesday. Whoever has to plan around all these short term absences will have a nightmare.

Does anyone actually know what schools are supposed to do if there is a positive case who's been into school?